Podcast: Toxic Masculinity vs. Biblical Masculinity with Regan King

This article is part of the Affinity Talks Gospel Podcast series.

In this episode of the Affinity Talks Gospel Podcast, hosts Graham Nicholls and Lizzie Harewood sit down with Regan King, a pastor in central London, to tackle the pressing issue of toxic masculinity in today’s culture.

This timely discussion dives into the origins of harmful masculine stereotypes – exemplified by figures like Andrew Tate – and contrasts them with a biblical model of masculinity rooted in service, responsibility, and spiritual health. As young men increasingly grapple with identity crises amid cultural shifts, this episode unpacks how the church can offer a redemptive alternative to hyper-masculine role models and societal disillusionment. From addressing misogyny and pornography to encouraging men to step up as servant leaders, this conversation is packed with insights for parents, educators, and church leaders.

Perfect for those searching for Christian perspectives on masculinity in 2025, this episode bridges current trends – like the rise of male influencers and the gender identity debate – with timeless biblical truth.

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Topics addressed in this Podcast:

• Toxic Masculinity and Its Cultural Examples
  The episode examines toxic masculinity, spotlighting figures like Andrew Tate as a stereotype of misogyny, abuse, and the rejection of biblical values. Regan King critiques how such influences exploit young men’s desire for identity and excellence, despite their harmful messages
• Biblical Roots of Gender Struggles
  The discussion traces toxic masculinity back to Genesis 3, where sin distorts relationships into domination rather than biblical headship. This misapplication of scripture fuels harmful attitudes within and beyond the church.
• Cultural Loss of Male Identity
  The hosts and Regan explore how modern culture’s negative portrayal of men – coupled with efforts to suppress masculine traits – has left many disillusioned, driving some toward hyper-masculine role models like Tate or Jordan Peterson as a response to this identity vacuum.
• A Positive Vision of Biblical Masculinity
  Regan and Graham articulate a redeemed masculinity centred on servant leadership, spiritual health, and responsibility – not power or stereotypes. This includes practical areas like physical, mental, and spiritual well-being, and stepping up in family and church roles.
• The Church’s Role and Complementary Support
  The episode addresses how the church can counter toxic trends by disciplining harmful behaviours, teaching biblical gender roles, and fostering environments where men lead and women encourage respectfully. It emphasises mutual support over competition.

Transcript

[AI generated]

[0:11] Hello, my name is Graham Nicholls. And my name is Lizzie Harewood,

[0:15] and this is the Affinity Talks Gospel Podcast. And we’re here to speak with Regan King today about the topic of toxic masculinity and what a biblical view of masculinity might be. So Regan, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? You are obviously a man. Why are you here to talk to us about this topic? Well, some people would respond and say, well, yeah, you can’t assume my gender. That’s where we’re at at the moment.

[0:46] I would hope that in our company we can. Yeah, exactly. So my name is Regan King, and it’s a real privilege to be able to join you on the Affinity Talks podcast. It’s been a privilege to be a part of the Affinity Social Issues team for now over 10 years, and it’s been great to see how God has used that to edify and equip many people across evangelical churches in the UK.

[1:16] For many years, this has been a very big concern of mine, not the least of which, as a man myself and as a father of a son as well as of a daughter to be able to see and equip other young men with what is right and good and true we have an abundance of issues which are on the table at the moment to discuss in today’s world that are impacting males that are impacting the masculinity of individuals, and it’s so critical that we deal with some of these discussions in a biblical way. We’ve hosted previously some conferences at the Angel Church that have specifically been focused on biblical masculinity, and we hope to at some point do another one or or two of those to see where things have developed and to hopefully continue to make some impact on it.

[2:23] That’s really good. Before we get to the positives, do you want to talk for a couple of minutes about bad models of masculinity? So before talking about biblical masculinity, how we got to a state where the word toxic and masculinity were put together? Some of it is anti-Christian, but maybe some of it is a reaction to bad models that were happening? Yeah, you’re exactly right, Graham. There, I believe, definitely is a masculinity that is toxic. One of the most stereotypical types of toxic masculinity that I agree is toxic, that most people, even the mainstream media, which is able to get quite a bit wrong, has rightly identified as toxic, is that of Andrew Tate. A couple of years ago, I believe, I wrote something for Affinity on Andrew Tate and some of the ways in which he is influencing young men. The conversation is still very live.

[3:32] He remains very influential despite continued criminal investigations and really horrible material that’s actually easily viewable. In which Andrew is incredibly abusive to other women, in which he advocates for abuse, in which he advocates for sexual violence, in which he advocates for mistreatment of women, and in which he demeans the biblical model of masculinity found in that one-man-one-woman union that is marriage, a strong and loving husband and father figure in the home.

[4:19] So you’ve kind of picked up there on some of the facets of toxic masculinity, and I’m assuming you’d say things like misogyny and the abuse of that kind of physical power and prowess um and obviously you know the abuse of women sexually and they i think as you say you know 99 of us would agree that that is toxic masculinity and is pretty abhorrent and you know as a mum of a girl and you as dads of girls you find that pretty abhorrent but where on earth is this coming from because this is not just arrived in our lap um this this has been caused or triggered by something.

[5:05] Yeah, so I think that that analysis of the origin of toxic masculinity is very important. The biblical answer, the correct answer, is we go all the way back to Genesis 3 where we see this battle between the sexes begin. We see that there’s going to be this mindset of the man shall rule over the woman. This is not meant to be, it’s being portrayed by some, and I want to touch on that in a moment, who profess Christ as this is the model, this is how it should be.

[5:49] Domination, rulership over, not headship, which is a very different thing. That’s a biblical thing, spiritual headship, but rulership and domination of women. And then the mindset and attitude that is toxic that takes Genesis 3 and misapplies it says, the woman is going to be against you. She’s going to be against you. She’s going to come against you. But you have to rule over her. She has to submit to you. And we’re seeing this not only in the context of marriage conversations. I know some very extreme examples where a Sunday school teacher was told, for instance, that she could not talk to a 13, 14-year-old boy in a way of correction because he was a man and he was of age. And so that’s where this sort of toxic stuff comes in to the Christian sphere, where we take the consequences of the fall, the consequences that God gives saying, this is what’s going to happen. And we then make that the model on which to live rather than seeking redemption and seeking unity and complementarity and oneness in the marriage relationship.

[7:16] That’s really helpful, and I guess from that origin there are all kinds of ways that’s worked out in different cultures at different times. And I think in our particular time, there’s been some good reaction against a bad kind of masculinity, but I think that’s led to males feeling particularly lost, which is why I think at a human level, although you’re absolutely right, it’s all to do with sin and our rebellion, but at a human level, there’s an appeal to Andrew Tate’s kind of masculinity at some level or other, or even if people don’t agree with everything he says, because he’s kind of giving them an identity which has been lost,

[8:03] which has been flattened by culture. So it can be both sinful, but at a human level, the local cause is to do with that loss, I think.

[8:13] Yeah, and that kind of, I mean, Reagan, I’m not sure if you realise, but my career in education and now my work with the Association of Christian Teachers has led me to really think about what’s happening amongst the younger generation particularly in secondary school etc etc and um yeah i just wonder if you can speak into whether you’ve observed any of this kind of um this pattern of clinging to these sort of hyper masculine male role models male models um and in that kind of response to what has potentially started to be um a negative view of of boys and men um and in an attempt to kind of perhaps even feminize some of those masculine traits out of boys um i don’t know if you can say anything into that.

[9:12] Very definitely. Yeah, I think this is not an overly new thing. I think we began to see the seeds of this some years ago. I remember as a child, one of the first things where I thought, this isn’t right, this isn’t how it should be. I was playing on a basketball team and, um, we up to that point had, had played on two previous teams and the previous seasons. And, um, you know, it was, uh, these were boys teams and there was another league for the girls and that was, that was how things were. Um, the coach that we had the final year, um, that played his wife was coaching a girls team.

[10:02] And they decided, okay, let’s just, you know, we don’t actually have to compete here. This is all about having fun. And so we’re just going to mix the boys and the girls together for practice. Now, some of us were like, well, we weren’t so sure about that. We thought we have a very different type of play. And then when we were doing what we had learned the previous two years we were told no no no no no go easy on the girls just have fun go easy on the girls guys we lost every single game every single game um i had gone from winning the previous two seasons um and the the championship that was there in that league to losing everything because there was this kind of this sense of a feminization really where we are our training techniques everything was tailored to suit the girls league that’s just a kind of small example of it I do see.

[11:08] The reverse side of this, though, where a lot of young men are feeling disillusioned, like Graham said. They’re feeling like the world is against them. They’re feeling as if every caricature of men is bad. I mean, you just have to look at TV. Men are very commonly portrayed as quite stupid. Um animations you know you can think of homer simpson or peter griffin or some of these characters you know who are quite they’re quite oafish aloof um you know to use a blunt term idiots basically um there might be some sage moments of there’s never any real motivation, people like andrew tate fill the void because they actually address men as men Now, they address in a wrong way. They teach the wrong thing.

[12:09] Everything about what Andrew Tate is saying, for the most part in substance, is absolutely, totally abhorrent and completely antithetical to the Christian way. But his general M.O. of seeking to produce excellence in every realm, that’s what he speaks of. He wants to train men to pursue excellence in every realm.

[12:36] That taps into the imagination and taps into the void that’s in so many young men’s lives where they’re like, I want to be excellent, but everyone else is telling me I can’t be or shouldn’t. Be or they’re demeaning me for my ambition and my pursuit yeah i guess um lizzie as a as a jordan peterson um groupie like didn’t you go to that oh no you didn’t go did you yeah the arc i did go to i i’m certainly not a jordan peterson groupie i was being very very flippant i didn’t actually think he spoke that well at arc at all no sometimes he doesn’t he sometimes he has days but he would also be someone who you’ve probably seen him a little bit more than I would tap into that feeling in a more positive way even though he’s not Christian yeah um yeah and I think that I think there then becomes though a slight concern that this becomes a polarizing almost politically.

[13:41] Sensitive ish cultural thing and that to embrace a kind of or re-embrace a kind of masculinity, that means that you then have to also embrace a kind of political or cultural viewpoint on lots of different things um, And I think I do worry, yeah, as you were articulating, Regan, that, you know, boys, I’m particularly concerned about boys being the mum of the boy and having taught many boys and teenagers, that they are falling behind girls in education in general.

[14:23] School, you know, their crime, suicide. And now we’re also seeing that young men are also earning less than their female peers for the very first time since records began. And of course, I’m not advocating that anyone wants to go back to the kind of the misogyny of the 70s or 80s. And I think that was a very real phenomenon. You know, I speak to my mum and my auntie, you know, there were some really pretty abhorrent things that were just accepted in a workplace. Absolutely. Absolutely. So I guess, how can the church offer a better story that can kind of enhance and encourage traditional masculine virtues without playing into this kind of political playbook? How can we understand what true biblical masculinity is yeah i’ll answer that in a second reagan um definitely hold that question just to pick up on your 70s 80s point before it got lost because i grew up because i grew up then because i’m older than you guys you’ve been through yourself graham yeah i think i’ve yeah i think what happened in in my observation i wasn’t i I’m not old enough to have lived through the.

[15:49] Well, not as an adult anyway, or as a conscious child through the sixties so much, but the, What you had was the worst of all worlds in that period where you had the sexual revolution. So the kind of permission to make sexually lewd comments and so forth without any controls in place at all. So you kind of abandoned a Christian sexual and marriage ethic and you had no controls at all. So in a way, in God’s common grace, things got a bit better.

[16:16] Yeah, yeah. So I think it’s not that there’s a long history of misogyny. You may not have liked quite how people behaved in um you know 17th 18th century in britain but there there was there was a working system that wasn’t um you know women didn’t generally feel unsafe yeah no absolutely same way but yeah come back to your biblical answer there was just a little qualification for the 70s absolutely i’m just standing up for them for a minute i think that’s a great great explanation absolutely yeah it’s yeah exactly and on that it’s important you know there’s there’s always exceptions and i think a lot of times um media portrays things in a particular way films uh of course you can watch a lot of tv shows and you’re thinking wow this is like it’s it’s quite full-on um you have full-on racism you have full-on misogyny you have a lot of negative things that somehow are are being presented often for laughs often for some form low form albeit of comedic value the question that you asked there lizzie on what can we be doing in a positive way it’s difficult because you’ve highlighted a problem that often this does go along with certain um.

[17:37] There are certain viewpoints that one is supposed to have if they’re going to be a man, right? And oftentimes, tragically, what we’re seeing, even in the Christian spheres, that’s tending toward the far right. So we have the issue with Marxism and the far left. That’s undeniable. We’re not talking about that. We’re talking about the drift of so many into blatant racism, blatant anti-Semitism, extreme misogyny. I’m not going to listen to you. You’re a woman. I’ve heard it with my own ears. I’ve seen it with my own eyes where a sister in Christ, a dear sister in Christ, with maturity and degree of authority in the right place.

[18:28] Sought to encourage a brother in Christ who was out of line, was out of order, and said, I don’t think this is helpful. I don’t think this is the best way of communicating with your neighbors. He was really going on a quite extreme rant about it. He simply responded with a few cherry-picked verses out of context that she shouldn’t be talking to him and she shouldn’t be telling him what to do, at which case this became a disciplinary issue. And this is part of what needs to happen. Churches need to, where we see this happening, be bold to not sweep it under the rug, but to say, we need a conversation. Church leaders need to be willing to say, okay, let’s have a conversation and seek reconciliation if that’s not possible, if it escalates, to go through that Matthew 18 model of church discipline.

[19:31] Part of the problem with young men today gravitating toward either varying degrees of feminism or extreme misogyny, these are two sides of the same coin, is that there’s a lack of discipline. There’s a lack of clarity. There’s a lack of structure. So we need to teach positively on biblical masculinity and femininity, identifying with boldness what it means to be a man, what it means to be a woman, and using basic terms, going in-depth on this, pinpointing areas of real concern, providing spaces for the conversations to be had. The rates of pornography among both men and women, but yes, it is greater among men, are absolutely catastrophic.

[20:29] And this is leading to sexual objectification, sexual dysfunction. We’re talking about objectification as well. There’s been oftentimes there’s debt. There’s people who are getting this addiction. They’re going on OnlyFans. Or some other place where they can easily access soft and hardcore pornography, they’re working themselves into a place of debt. They’re ashamed of why they are in debt, so they’re covering it up, and it just leads from one thing to the next, including leading to things like depression, suicide as well. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, you talk then about all these negative aspects of masculinity.

[21:17] I really want us to bring it around to a more positive biblical perspective in that obviously they are the dangers and we do not want to funnel young men, boys into that mould. What is a positive or a biblical view of masculinity? What does it mean to be a biblical man or a biblical woman as well? It’s a great question. Graham, do you want to say anything to that first? To give you time to think of something.

[21:48] Working my way into it, I think it’s both to do with role, but I think it is also something to do with how we’re made and how we respond. So I think there’s something about being a man in terms of our role of being within the home and in the church a servant leader. But I think God both commands, but he also equips. And I think, generally speaking, there’s something about what it is to be biologically a male and biologically a female, which makes us a bit more suited, a bit more suited, suited to our roles. So I think there is something uh it’s the disputed bit actually but i think there is something ontological as well as there’s something um in terms of role um role and relationship um so i think it’s both those things i think we we as men uh where where to act as as servant leaders and it’s really that i think that encapsulates the whole thing in terms of taking a lead but taking a lead in in in a way of service and love and dedication and wanting the best for whoever, whatever we’re leading. I think there’s something about the general disposition of men that can be encouraged.

[23:11] And it’s not just to do with upper body strength and everything else. I think there’s something to do with the way our brains tend to work as well, which can be encouraged and will help us be good leaders in that. There’s also, because of sin, some things about maleness that need to be discouraged in terms of.

[23:29] Um you know lack of a lack of care sometimes and so on so anyway that’s that’s kind of given a bit of a start just as a negative i think um stereotypical things to do with what you do in the home or uh you know whether you’re more likely to play sport or less likely to play sport or more competitive less competitive get a little bit kind of silly in the end um i don’t think there’s anything in the bible about uh uh particular traits so much um yeah i think although i would completely agree with you there and i don’t think that um you know all men need to be bodybuilders or rugby players yes my son is the least sporty boy you’ll ever find so if we ever say that that’s what makes a real man he’s going to be sort of disappointed but there’s something about the physicality of a man um that has a sense of power yeah and and therefore i think um so for example my husband he loves in on the weekend there’s nothing more he likes to do then go into our garden and chop up wood for the log burner now that sounds like a really stereotypical kind of laughable um yeah i don’t know thing to do but he and my son does it as well with him I mean, my son will be there with an axe, and he’s nine. That’s fantastic. And he absolutely loves it. He loves spending time with his dad, you know, chopping up wood.

[24:58] He’s not sporty in any way, but just the physicality, being out, working. And I’m not saying this needs to be the case for all men, but it gives him that opportunity. No, that’s not unusual, Lizzie. That’s pretty general.

[25:13] Yeah, yeah. Whether they’re physically good at it and strong and everything else can vary, but yeah.

[25:19] Absolutely. but just using physicality in a way that some you know that i don’t know in a positive way in a way that is um yeah productive meaningful yeah yeah so um look there there are five areas that i highlight when in counseling with guys on a range of issues but particularly you know i i don’t say you know we’re going to do this to make you feel better about being a man or it’s this is the same for anyone and everyone but I think it is relevant physical health mental health emotional health financial health and last but not least spiritual health you cannot have the physical mental emotional and financial health unless you are rooting all of those in the right priority and place spiritually um and then that opens up four areas um questions um and answers and Identity, who you are as a man made in God’s image, what that means for you

[26:27] in a practical way, who you are as an individual man.

[26:33] Interests and things, you don’t throw those out. Those are all areas that are important and should be celebrated in a healthy way where things have been negative or where things have been corrupted in some way. Then it’s channeling that back into the right and proper place.

[26:52] So identity, who you are, meaning how you are. How are you in these other areas? Do you find meaning and fulfillment and wholeness in your life? If not, why not? Oftentimes, the answer is in that spiritual health category, the mental and emotional issues that we often experience. It’s not that every area of depression or every area of mental health issue points to a spiritual struggle. That’s not what I’m saying. but very often those areas can be significantly aided when we understand more about who we are in the context of who God is and who he has made us to be then there’s purpose why you are what are you living for you know the amount of guys I and I ask I ask um, From a very young age, what do you want to be when you grow up? Now, you’re probably going to say something that is not going to be what you are going to be. That will change over time. That’s okay.

[27:56] I want to hear from young children, boys and girls alike, but from boys particularly, as we’re talking about masculinity right now, I want to hear something. I don’t want to get, I don’t know, or I’ve never really, you know, firemen. You know, ambulance driver, soldier, football player, whatever it is, I just want to hear something. Artist, whatever it is, is there a sense of purpose, even at a young age, of why you are? Astronaut, whatever it may be, maybe it will be something that child grows up to be. Maybe not. But engendering a sense of you’re not made to just go in a cycle of ignorance and lacking any sense of direction. Have some sense of direction early on. And if you have to change course in some of those practical ways, if God doesn’t lead you down the way that you think you will go as a child that’s still developing in the mind, that’s fine.

[29:06] But it’s part of that development process. So there’s identity, meaning, purpose, and destiny. Where are you going? Not just in this life, but is there a concept of eternity? And that’s where the spiritual health element comes in again where there’s a recognition that there are going to be difficulties in this life.

[29:32] What matters most is that we’re living for the kingdom of heaven. And that produces this mindset that looks to what Paul says to the church in Philippi, imitate me as I imitate Christ.

[29:49] And to unpack that and look at what that looks like in terms of love, sacrifice, service, selflessness, boldness, endurance. You know pushing through hard things not giving up easily um you know not not um just throwing things away because it’s difficult do you think there’s a particular openness amongst men in at the moment because i just look at um our church and um over the last few years i would say i’ve seen more men come to church on their own from our community than women um so men either coming and then at some point bringing their families with them or single men coming along and many of these men haven’t been there because they’ve had the kind of breadcrumb trail to church they’ve been there because there’s just been something they’ve been curious about i’m just wondering whether we’re at a juncture now but with the whole kind of cultural stuff that’s going on but obviously some of that you know can be a bit disjointed and i’m not saying all of that is good but there’s perhaps a little window here of opportunity with men.

[31:08] Yeah that’s really interesting really interesting sorry you carry on reagan no no you graham i want to hear your take on it yeah no i i think it’s really interesting we have seen some young men walking into our church um and uh yeah i think the that’s historically not never happened very rarely happened people write in books about how you know it’s mainly women who get converted from outside the church um and then it’s difficult to bring families along um so that that is encouraging and it possibly is to to do with the kind of cultural moment um that we’re in or connected with that. Which is why I think there’s an appeal to Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate at different levels. Jordan Peterson is more intellectual and softer, but as well as that general spiritual hunger, people are looking for identity. So they may get more than they bargained for when they come into church and find Christ and have to submit to Christ, and it’s not really about them and them feeling better about themselves. But maybe that’s the kind of the way in. That they’re disillusioned with what they’re being told because what they’re being told makes them feel pretty undervalued and doesn’t give them any destiny and identity and all those things that Reagan was talking about.

[32:28] I’m sure Reagan will go on to say this, but I think in terms of all those things that you were talking about, Reagan, some of them are common to male or female, but we want to do all those things with maleness in mind, but not with a patristic in a bad way, misogynistic maleness, but a maleness that is willing to step up to lead. The problem in churches, as I observe, is not so much that there’s loads of women who were trying to lead in a way that’s unbiblical. It’s more that there’s a lack of men who are trying to lead in a way that is biblical. And so often kind of holes are filled just because men are not willing to step up. And I see that sometimes in families as well. And it’s hard sometimes to kind of engender that without sort of nagging everyone to man up sort of thing. But there is a bit of a cultural trend in that where maybe because of the wider culture so i’m going to go off on one a bit now but but maybe because of the wider culture, men christian men are not stepping up in the way that you would hope they would in the way they’re kind of leading their families you know i know a number of families um uh you know across all the different churches in affinity where where you know and have conversations with people where.

[33:53] Where men are not leading bible studies in their own homes you know it’s kind of more by the women and they’re sort of turning up grudgingly to them or whatever or they’re not the ones who are driving to say you know gathering with god’s people is really important we need to make that a priority so 100 we’re going to figure out about you know what sport we do or not do or whether we decide to tidy the house or do the garden or go go to the beach every day when it’s this nice weather you know and to take some some degree of responsibility and ownership in that, um you know rather than rather than playing video games and and sort of trying to do the least amount, Setting the model for how to respond to life’s difficulties and stresses and burdens. We all have heavy times. We all have heavy weeks. There are times when we need to, despite that hoe and through that, say, what matters most here?

[34:52] How am I going to feel better by just taking a day off to myself and, you know, in the household and stuff like that? Is that really teaching my children? Is that really teaching my family and leading my family to recognize that Christ is the priority? Cast your cares upon the Lord, knowing he cares for you. I find a lot of times there is this issue where men who profess Christ and who I believe in many cases do possess Christ are taking cues from the world in how to deal with difficulty and disappointment. So if I’m not feeling, you know, I’m just kind of like, oh, it’s been a rough time. I’ve had a rough week. I’m just going to stay home.

[35:46] Okay. I really struggle to see how that fits in with the attitude and mindset of Paul, who says, imitate me as I imitate Christ, right? I mean, we can talk a little bit about Paul’s sufferings. And you can see at the end of 2 Corinthians, his outline of all that he went through, where he was whipped, he was scourged, he was beaten up, he was stoned, he experienced shipwreck. He did all of these things he experienced, and on top of that, his anxiety for the churches every single time.

[36:25] He’s literally stoned to the point of death, and what does he do? He drags himself back into the city and goes to meet with God’s people. You know, he recognized where he was going to grow, where he was going to fulfill his calling, where he was going to be encouraged and lifted up, the place where he would find healing. And it’s difficult because a lot of times when these issues are addressed, when even matters of just honoring the most basic elements of the Christian life are dealt with, like prioritizing getting your family to Bible study and church gatherings on time, that sort of thing. And people, you flag this up and say, no, you know, this is a good discipline. This is a good thing to do. This is a good habit, not just for now, but for every area of life that can, because of our effect sort of culture, produce resentment.

[37:31] And it’s like, oh, well, you know, people get, this is one area that I find very troubling where, and it’s reported to me, I have multiple people will come and share of some struggles pastorally where they’ve even gently tried to highlight an area for development in the guys and the guys get their backs up.

[37:57] And respond in a way that is aggressive and has that masculine energy, but that’s not being used in the right way. On the positive side, and there is a lot of positive side, we’ve been very blessed to see a significant number of men coming through the doors of the angel church and seeing them discipled, seeing them going out.

[38:25] Are there areas for development yes you know i would really love to see more men, you know involving themselves taking initiative to gather around each other for prayer i would love to see that more i think that’s across the board an area of concern that very often in terms of prayer and worship the women are the ones who are setting a good example in many cases for that. I remember a season where we had some young guys who unfortunately had some of these negative elements that we’ve been talking about, very prevalent. Their attitude toward other women in the church was at times quite abhorrent and was increasingly so prior to their departure. But the women were the ones in majority who were eagerly embracing prayer and fasting times. The young guys would complain about prayer. Some of the same women and the growth that was evident in their lives while not recognizing, okay, you don’t just have a place of authority by nature of being a man.

[39:44] Being male does not make you a leader, right? There’s a deeper criteria that we see biblically for leadership. At the same time, recognizing that that is attainable and that that should be salt.

[40:02] Many of you should be teachers by now, is what the writer to the Hebrews says, but you’re still on milk. Seeing our men develop and grow and step up into a place of meaningful service and endurance is a priority.

[40:18] I know we’re probably running towards the end of our time, but Just from a woman’s perspective, how can women in the church, how can they be supporting and enabling men to step up? Because I suppose we briefly touched on the fact that men often are a bit reluctant or even lazy sometimes to assume responsibility. I think there’s also been a tendency for women you know to kind of the desire for their husbands as talked about in Genesis is for their kind of power their authority and their their role and how can we kind of be a bit more disciplined perhaps and enable men to step up and encourage that yeah I mean I I think.

[41:08] Giving permission for men to lead um is is really useful and and that’s quite subtle i mean you can say what do you actually mean um but but in lots of ways kind of indicating that that’s that’s all right i think it is good and and i you know are often prompted by my own wife and in all my failures and and uh and help so it’s not as though um you know i’m above reproach because i’m a man But if that reverts to basically you feeling like you’re being dragged along and you’re so spiritually inferior to your spouse, to your wife in particular, that is quite hard to come up out of, in my observation. So finding ways of being spiritually helpful and prompting.

[41:56] And prompting, but with the common permission and encouragement to be not the sort of nagging to, to look, there’s me that’s driving this spiritually and you’re just useless. Um, now that attitude is quite different to, um, I’d really love it if you could, if you could take a bit more of a lead on this. Um, and you know, uh, and, and I’d love you to do it. I don’t want to leave this. I really would love you to do this. And I want you to do this is quite different than just saying you’re rubbish. So I think anything that gives permission and gives space for men to lead is helpful. I mean, we men have got to take our own responsibility as well.

[42:39] In God’s goodness, when it works, it works really well and it’s a beautiful thing where men take their responsibilities and women take their responsibilities right, and it is complimentary in the best possible way. Do you want to add anything to that, reagan i’m sure there’s no i think that’s great uh graham i think there’s a lot uh to be said for actively displaying respect for um the the man especially um you know speaking words that are emboldening encouraging uh undermining is never never good uh you know questioning um behavior has to be at times that there has to be some some challenge right there has to at times be a question but that can be done in a way that is encouraging and that’s redirecting into a positive way so discernment asking questions I mean I think that’s generally the best way to communicate across the board where there’s a potentially tense or tenuous situation where people.

[43:49] To just ask a question. Okay, so why are you thinking that way? Why are you feeling that way? What’s going on in that? And then have this back and forth of questions, not questioning, but asking questions in a respectful way. And if there’s someone who seems to be struggling, coming alongside, because there are singles as well in the church, how can this play out? If you see someone struggling, go and offer prayer. I think that generally is best done by someone who’s in a more mature capacity. There has to be a lot of discernment and caution. I’ve known over the years people who they thought, I’ll try to help this person.

[44:35] They’re going in almost like a Messiah sort of character when really this person, there’s only one Messiah, Jesus. And, um, so, you know, offer prayer, but be wary of unhealthy emotional, um, connections or misreading of the situation. Um, and, and oftentimes seeking pastoral counsel on any questionable situations is, um, often wise, but respect is, I think the core quality to show and to be willing to follow the lead. If there’s a serious issue that’s coming up, if there’s a question that has to be asked, if there’s something your family is going through and there’s decisions that need to be made.

[45:27] Actively enable the husband as the spiritual head of the household. And that can be difficult, but that can be something that is done, and it’s in a complementary way of mutual love and respect, of working through things together, but ultimately trusting that God will lead and guide.

[45:55] Always remembering, it’s not about power and control. Yes. It’s about service and responsibility. and and if we own our responsibility as men that will that will shape everything and if we love and want to serve both our wives and other people that we’re leading um that that will actually be an antidote to any kind of power craziness um this is redeemed masculinity not toxic masculinity yeah yeah brilliant well we have indeed run out of time in a way that’s the beginning of a conversation there’s lots more things we could said but um thank you so much reagan uh i love your passion i love your discipling that you’re doing of people in the church and um and may god continue to bless you doing that thank you very much all of you you guys too bless him.