Podcast: Complementarianism: Reflecting God’s beautiful design in church and beyond

This article is part of the Affinity Talks Gospel Podcast series.

Join Lizzie Harewood, Mel Lacy, and Rhiannon MacKintosh as they explore the beauty and challenges of complementarianism in the church, home, and wider society.

In this episode of Affinity Talks Gospel, host Lizzie Harewood is joined by Mel Lacy, Director of Growing Young Disciples, and Rhiannon MacKintosh, Mission Coordinator for the Free Church of Scotland. Together, they dive into the topic of complementarianism—a biblical perspective on the roles of men and women that is often misunderstood or controversial.

Drawing on Scripture, personal experience, and theological reflection, they discuss how complementarianism promotes human flourishing by embracing God’s design for distinct yet equal roles. The conversation also addresses the practical implications for churches, families, and society, highlighting the need for intentional teaching, leadership development, and the discipling of both men and women.

Whether you’re exploring this topic for the first time or seeking deeper understanding, this episode invites you to consider how complementarianism reflects the beauty of God’s created order and contributes to a faithful witness in today’s world.

Find out more about:

• Growing Young Disciples – https://www.growingyoungdisciples.co.uk/
• Free Church of Scotland – https://freechurch.org/
• Affinity – https://www.affinity.org.uk/

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Topics addressed in this Podcast:

• What is Complementarianism? – Mel Lacy and Rhiannon MacKintosh define complementarianism and its biblical foundations, including the idea of men and women being equal in worth but having distinct roles.
• The beauty of Complementarianism – The guests discuss the beauty of God’s design for men and women and how it reflects his character and purpose.
• Complementarianism beyond church and home – Exploring the broader implications of complementarianism in everyday life, work, and society.
• Biblical submission explained – A discussion on what biblical submission means and how it is often misunderstood.
• Complementarianism as a witness – How men and women fulfilling their God-given roles showcases the beauty of Christ’s body to the world.
• Addressing misuses of Complementarianism – The dangers of misuse in homes and churches and how to combat them through better teaching and practice.
• Equipping men and women for ministry – Practical steps churches can take to encourage and train men and women for their roles in ministry and family life.
• Encouraging female voices in the church – Highlighting the importance of including women’s perspectives in leadership and service within the church.
• Closing reflections – The guests share final thoughts on how complementarianism, when rightly understood and applied, promotes flourishing in the church and beyond.

Transcript

[AI generated]

[0:11] Welcome to the Affinity Talks Gospel Podcast.

[0:15] My name is Lizzie Harewood and today we’re talking about a topic that for most churches connected to or involved in the Affinity Network would be somewhat familiar, perhaps not necessarily talked about in great depth, either in the church or in the home. And that’s the topic of complementarianism. It’s something that can often be misunderstood or controversial, even within evangelical circles. And although the word complementarianism or complementarity isn’t found in the Bible, it’s used to capture a biblical idea, a bit like the word Trinity. So here to discuss the topic with me are Mel and Rhiannon. Mel and Rhiannon, thank you so much for joining. Could you briefly just tell us what your roles are and where you work because I know that you’re both in full-time Christian ministry great to find out a bit more Mel thanks Lizzie my name is Mel Lacy I’m the director of Growing Young Disciples which is a pretty new organization designed to resource and equip parents church families youth and kids ministers youth and kids leaders in raising the next generation for the Lord Jesus.

[1:31] Fabulous. Thank you, Mel. Rhiannon? Thanks, Lizzie. I’m Rhiannon MacKintosh. I work as the mission coordinator for the Free Church of Scotland. So I work for the mission board, which seeks to see a healthy gospel church in every community in Scotland. And through that, we look at church planting, church development, global mission, and different areas of equipping the church through youth, through women, and things like that.

[1:55] Okay, Brill, well, it’s great to have you both here it’s um it’s lovely to meet some other ladies and uh normally we are um joined by graham who kind of leads and you know guides these podcasts so uh today it’s just the women and that’s not that’s not a bad thing and i think on this topic that’s quite a good thing so complementarism, Let’s have a think, first of all, then. Let’s try and define what this means. How would you define complementarianism in a way that’s accessible to someone hearing the term for the first time? That’s a good question. I think I would say something like it’s a way of understanding.

[2:45] The uniqueness of how God made men and women to live in his world. That’s probably where I’d start, I think. Sure. Yeah, I think what you said at the beginning, Leslie, about, you know, we don’t actually see the word complementarianism in the Bible, like we don’t see the Trinity. So it’s thinking about this idea that men and women are created equal in worth and dignity. You know, we see in Genesis 1 how God has created us equal, but with different roles. And men and women are complementary to one another in the gifts that God has given us. And yeah, I think it’s a very big word for a very big theme that, you know, we see running through the Bible. But actually, it’s maybe not often the most helpful word. I think when you can’t immediately come up with a definition, like just based on the word, it always can mean different things to different people but yeah. Sure absolutely well.

[3:50] I would say that what you both have already explained is brilliant and I’m on board with that. And absolutely, I would say that you’re talking about the complementarity and how God has designed us different but equal in worth. And actually that in the church and in the home and in some areas of life, men and women have distinct roles. And not always exclusively down, kind of funneled down one path. And I think it’s very clear that the Bible doesn’t have those kind of blanket policies apart from certain areas of life. But actually these biblical roles are designed to promote kind of spiritual good to help men and women thrive together.

[4:50] Yeah so Rhiannon you talked a bit about Genesis 1 going back to creation narrative what does that teach us about the roles of men and women and is there anything else in the bible that we can draw on to kind of um yeah supplement our understanding of what it means to be complementarian and i’m assuming that we all are part of churches that would um be committed to a complementarian stance as well that’s that’s why we’re here and so we would have this teaching at some point or maybe at least implicitly in our churches so what what does the bible say.

[5:30] Yeah, I think, yeah, when we, you know, from the very beginning, there is a distinction between men and women, which I think is quite something that I probably often overlooked.

[5:43] But, you know, God in the Genesis narrative in 1 and 2 created man and he created Adam and, you know, the kind of like end point of as like the creation narrative is unfolding. And then we see that actually god says it is not good for man to be alone and it almost becomes this like pinnacle of creation that then the woman that eve is created she’s born out of man because man alone was not um enough you know he needed uh the um hebrew word i think describes a suitable helper he needed someone who was side by side with him um in creation and so this like picture where we see you know I think you know sometimes it’s oh man was created first a woman and secondary but actually it’s that man was created and needed um femininity needed this woman to come alongside him um which is a really important part and as we know that we are created in the image of God, that actually our maleness and our femaleness is displaying different characteristics of God. It shows us more of the image of God complete in men and women together, not just one or the other.

[7:07] I think that’s a really beautiful way of saying it, in that the pinnacle was not man and then man just needed a skimming.

[7:18] But actually, for creation to be complete, there needed to be the two sexes to be that, to work in that kind of beautiful union whereby all that God wanted to bless the world with could be put into action. And that needed man and woman. And it wasn’t good for him to be alone. And actually the only way that man could be sort of completed was with that woman. And obviously that’s not trying, that’s not.

[7:53] That’s not making any sort of statement about the role of single people within the church or within the world, but in general for humanity, they are a good part of God’s created order, men and women, the two sexes. And that was always part of God’s plan, that this was fully intended, how he designed the world and his created order, as you said, Lizzie. and that it’s not just good, it’s beautiful. And I wonder if that’s, you know, some of the language that we use around complementarianism

[8:30] is to try and explain it in a way that is acceptable to the world. And actually, I think sometimes we just forget the beauty of it and the perfection of it. And I think that’s one of the things for me, sometimes actually when people ask me about it, I don’t go for the functional explanation. I actually go for the personal explanation of I find it being one of the most beautiful things that God has done. And actually, as a woman, it is one of the most joyous and freeing and enlivening things that I understand about the gospel and God’s created order. And I wonder sometimes if that’s actually what we need to explain rather than, you know, I’m just putting up with us.

[9:16] But actually, it is where I thrive as a woman. And I’m speaking from a singleness point of view, also speaking as a woman who serves in full-time ministry and at the moment leads an organization. So it’s not that in any way I would fall into what the world might think about being suppressed or oppressed into that category. And still, I’m 100% pleased to say it is, a clear understanding of God’s created order that does allow men and women, I think, to flourish beautifully.

[9:52] I love that description of bringing us back to the beauty of it, because the first thing that was running through my mind is how Jesus is described as the bride, and our relationship with Christ is centred around this bride-groom relationship. So it just reminded me of that beautiful picture that we have that um you know i’m sure we’ll go on to talk about this but how jesus views and values women’s completely transformative to society to us personally um but even that that is the yeah that we are described as the bride of christ is just such a beautiful um picture and that he is our bridegroom and um yeah the roles that he places on that Sure so yeah well why don’t we dive into a bit of the New Testament so in Ephesians 5 I think it is where the relationship between Christ and the church that’s where the kind of the model.

[10:54] For or the pattern of that relationship between men women husbands and wives but how does that What serve as a model for complementarian roles, do you think, on that big picture scale? I think this is where we’ve got a little kind of paralyzed, perhaps, in that we tend to be pretty restrictive in saying we can only talk about complementarianism in the church and the home. And I wonder if that has shut down any other conversation around what does complementarity look like in the world more generally. I think about this particularly from the perspective of nurturing the next generation, actually. So in our churches if we’re thinking about how to raise kids and young people who understand the beauty of complementarity but we’re restricted to only talking about it in the church of the home it’s hard to talk about actually um and i yeah i love us to think a little bit more about what does it mean for everyday life what does it mean to be a woman what does it mean to be a man is there ontological differences about our being?

[12:10] And this is a kind of, I guess, an area that we haven’t got much writing on, we haven’t got much thinking on. Anything that you find about complementarianism tends to be about the church and the home. But actually, I think it does spill over into all areas of life. Now, what exactly that means, we have to do some much more significant work on, I think, as evangelicals.

[12:34] But I think even in kind of our physiological makeup, our emotional makeup, I think there are differences that actually we could be much more positive about engaging with rather than just trying to flatten all of the discussion to saying, no, we’ll only talk about this in a home where the man leads the woman or in the church where men lead the women or the general congregation.

[12:59] So I think it is a passion for broader life, but I think it’s undiscussed and perhaps unbearable uh theologically not particularly robust where we are at presenting an argument at the moment okay that that’s a really interesting point mel and i was wondering whether we would develop the conversation to get onto this this kind of very topic because as you say you know as a committed follower of complementarianism if that makes sense you know i i i’m i’m firmly of the belief that um The husband has the role of headship in the family and, you know, kind of graciously leads and nurtures his family in a sacrificial way. And in the church, again, you know, biblically, the men bear responsibility to provide spiritual leadership and training. And then, you know, again, are to graciously support women to exercise their gifts in the way that scripture allows, et cetera, et cetera.

[13:59] But when it comes to the rest of the world are we then to say well actually this created order doesn’t apply because it’s only really for the the christian segments of life and i and i ask this because you know i’m a leader of an organization you are as well mel and rihanna obviously you i’m sure you also have that kind of leadership role within um the free church of Scotland so what should we make of this and I think particularly as culture around us has, such a narrative that men and women are often interchangeable and actually with the rise of feminist ideology with the idea of there being natural and narrow complementarianism so I know these are other, kind of themes that are sometimes talked about in, in biblical theological discussions not earth, should we be responding to these questions when there isn’t much thinking or writing out there.

[15:05] I wonder part of it is also because our narrative of complementarianism in the church has been so skewed that it’s almost been like it has taken all the focus like you’re saying now there’s no um thinking or even like yeah big discussions on what it looks like outside because we didn’t we maybe this is a big statement but we haven’t always gotten it right in the church first you haven’t got it right in our frameworks of how we live as christians and then so to think about what it looks like in the worldview hasn’t like we’re still we’re working to getting there and one of the things that i’ve always found challenging in the narrative that um was pitched in the church is that, you know, men are in leadership.

[15:51] Women are subordinate to that. But when you look at 1 Timothy, you see that actually, you know, not all men are called to biblical leadership, to Christian leadership. It is qualified men who are ministers, who are elders of the word. And so even I think that view of, it took me a long time to realize that, oh actually you know this specific role that we have pinned almost all of complementarianism on is literally the very very tip of the iceberg and there is so much surrounding what when how men and women are supposed to live as christians how we are supposed to um be in a relationship with one another how we are supposed to then live out our lives um just hasn’t really been a focal focal point i know that doesn’t really answer the question um no no no like i i’m always interested in why this narrative has not been talked about um it’s a really interesting point you brought up now.

[16:55] I think we, for, so there’s been a rash of publishing, hasn’t there, over the last 20, 25 years around biblical manhood and womanhood. You can now find lots of books around that. So whenever that happens in the publishing world, it indicates that we have a problem in church life, that there’s something that’s not being taught properly or talked about properly. And I think that definitely happened. And then it became, I think, antagonistic. And the kind of a revision of the discussion was, well, let’s talk about this in church and in the home, and we won’t push into other areas of society. But then I think that has shut down the, what does this look like in other areas of society? It’s also focused a little bit unhelpfully, I think, on giftings. So, you know, is it only a man who’s gifted to lead a church? Well, I think that men and women are gifted by God.

[17:53] And actually, what’s different is the context in how we discharge those giftings. And that’s been really unhelpful because, again, that’s shut down that, you know, women don’t have this gifting. Well, I think women do have a gifting, for example, say to teach, but it’s more contextually where that is discharged.

[18:13] But yeah, I guess getting back to your original question, Lizzie, I think we haven’t got clear answers on what does this look like in all of life. So, for example, being a complementarian, does that mean actually we shouldn’t be leading organizations? Well, no, I don’t think so. But I think probably we do need some reflection on what does it mean to be a woman leading an organization? And we don’t have to step into a masculine role to do that. And that’s where we need to push further into what is femininity biblically, rather than kind of in a cultural way or in a Christian conceived way. Where do we really see what femininity is in the Bible? um, And so, you know, I can give a personal reflection on this in terms of undoubtedly part of my femininity is characterised by that helping understanding of who I am created to be. And then that therefore is discharged in how I perhaps care for my team, how I serve people. Now, does that mean a man can’t do that? no in terms of leadership, but I think it’s probably something slightly different a woman brings to that kind of leadership capacity.

[19:32] Look, I really have to be kind of happy to admit that I want to and need to do some more thinking about this, but I think that’s where we need to be pushing some of our reflection.

[19:42] Sure. So why don’t we dig into some of those, what some people might call the kind of the natural distinctions then. What do you think it is that God has blessed the two sexes with that are a general kind of rule? Obviously, we’re not going to make blanket statements that all men are like this and all women are like this, don’t want to create misconceptions or stereotypes. But it does seem that the Bible… Well, in the creation narrative, women are given certain roles, and that seems to tie in with the natural inclinations of personality or ability. What is it that perhaps, yeah, we see manifesting naturally?

[20:35] Okay i think one of the easy places to start with is physicality isn’t it that often men are stronger um and men are more muscular for example and so in terms of kind of what we would understand as natural there is a difference between our our physical makeup um and i think that’s an interesting place to start, isn’t it? I think, again, where, you know, this kind of discussion often is derailed is when you have exceptions to that rule. So you might have a taller, stronger woman than a kind of smaller, less muscular man. But to look more broadly at the kind of the natural way that masculinity and femininity are represented in our physicality, it does indicate that men are kind of taller have more strength naturally and are more muscular and women are not so there’s one distinction i think we can talk about in terms of our physicality um in yeah how men and women are created.

[21:49] Yeah, it is also one that we see, you know, referred to biblically in 1 Peter, where, you know, there is that distinction of how men are supposed to treat women in lack of that, you know, in the instructions that Peter is giving. Um and even before that he’s mentioning that um you know where women are finding their beauty you know it it’s to be found in spirit not in outward looking um things and in you know jewelry and fine clothes and all that things and um sometimes you wonder where these like have come from is it naturally we lean more tendance to care is it that society has placed this expectation on us And so it’s addressing that. But yeah, physicality is one of the like more clearer things mentioned in the Bible. Um yeah absolutely so um and i and i would uh i would also say that we see in.

[22:52] Through history how i think a sort of a feminine disposition has lent towards nurturing um it seems to be that women are more naturally relational they thrive on developing relationships with with others um to be the alongsiders in this in this life um to be nurturing particularly the young or the vulnerable um and and i think that is a beautiful thing it doesn’t mean that all women are naturally like that and that’s okay but in general we see that and and that is sort of displayed most obviously I suppose through childbearing and through being mothers and actually um that’s something that still most women want to do in some way or other um whether they have their own children or not you know it’s still a very natural thing for women to want to nurture nurture the the younger generation to care for them to to um yeah just put their arm around them and say i’ll look after you and i will teach you and i will um love you and i think that’s i think that is is a feminine inclination that we shouldn’t be embarrassed about or, apologetic for um.

[24:20] I think, I don’t know whether it’s always easy, though, because there are some women who don’t fit that mould. And I wouldn’t say that we are necessarily kind of by nature submitters. But that is the fall, isn’t it? That’s sin. And I guess we haven’t really talked about that where the corruption, the perversion, the beauty of the complementarian kind of vision has been corrupted. Absolutely. So actually we might be by nature submitters, but actually because of sin, that’s changed. Absolutely. So, you know, let’s get to grips with what the Bible says. The Bible says that a husband is to lovingly lead and in the church that men are to be the leaders. And actually, women or wives are to be submissive in that sense, in a practical day-to-day sense in the family, but also in the church, women and men who are in church leadership are to be submissive to their leaders.

[25:37] But what does that mean? What does it mean to submit?

[25:41] So I think sometimes people think it’s like living with a dictator or, you know, worshipping in a congregation under a dictator.

[25:51] But both practically how I’ve seen this played out, and I think biblically, it’s actually, it’s understanding, and this is again where this goes wrong, isn’t it? That, it’s understanding that actually this is a process by which a church leader or a husband will seek counsel, agreement, care in terms of the church or the home for those who are in the family or in the church family. But then at some stage they will make a decision. And at that point it’s okay, we’ve been through this process together. We’re going to trust your wisdom, having listened to everybody, having engaged with the kind of pros and cons of whatever it is, that you’ve made a right decision and we’re going to kind of go with that. So I don’t think it is that kind of, I’ve decided you follow. But that’s, again, where it becomes corrupted and perverted, isn’t it? And that’s where, you know, tragically, we have story after story of the misuse of complementarianism in the home particularly but also in the church actually um and i guess because the what’s encouraged biblically the disposition is of one of service of care of gentleness from a man to a woman from a church leader to his flock you know that’s what we need to see in this leadership um yeah.

[27:19] Yeah, and I think that’s where Ephesians 5 is actually a really helpful passage, because biblical submission can only be framed in the context it’s given, which is submitting to one another out of love for Christ.

[27:35] Is that distinction of both men and women, particularly like this example is in the home or in the church, that there is this submission to one another. And that actually, you know, in a marriage unit, that looks like, you know, wives are submitting to their husbands as they would do to Christ. But that is specific to women submitting to their husbands as they would to Christ.

[28:03] And you know men are to lead and to shape that at how Christ leads the church and that is that he laid down his life for that and so these yeah when that is harmed and when that is taken away is when you get these severe imbalances of power and you know it is a power dynamic that comes to play that you know either one can have this mindset of well i have been given this role and therefore you know that word dictator um comes into play of actually you know i have been given control by god rather than i am still under the authority and submission of god first and foremost and how you live as a christian is so clear in you know through the fruits of the spirit so that We’re living in gentleness, holiness, and all of these things. And that’s how we live as Christians. And so in this context,

[29:01] yes, there are some specific stipulations of what the role is. But outside of the teaching leadership in a church, men and women are equal to live as Christ has commanded them to live.

[29:15] And you know for your ordinary congregation member who’s not an elder who’s not the minister and you have that equal responsibility to one another and I think even the picture that we we get of you know we are Christ’s family we are brothers and sisters in Christ and that brother sister relationship is one that we probably don’t helpfully talk about enough of actually what it looks like to you know we’re equal in our our course to christ but it’s yeah we are to view one another’s as brothers and sisters first and foremost yeah yeah no and i think yeah that that’s a lovely kind of picture isn’t it that when men and women are.

[29:56] Fulfilling the roles that God has given them in an appropriate way. Christ is honoured, it’s beautiful and the church becomes a living picture of

[30:09] Christ’s body and that’s a beautiful witness to the outside world. But then as you say when that is abused, when there is misuse of authority um under the guise of complementarianism that can be incredibly damaging so how should churches address that either in marriages or in church leadership you know and you know we as even conservative evangelicals you know we have to be aware that there have been many instances, incidences of abuse over recent years.

[30:53] You know, I’m not saying that any of our kind of particular churches are involved, of course not, but we have to be aware that it could happen here. What steps can churches take? Yeah, like I’ve been reflecting just as you’ve both been talking that, you know, one of the big problems is we don’t teach or talk about this very much in our churches, to be honest with you. And that’s where practices will arise. Even I was thinking as Rhiannon was chatting there that, you know, I know churches where, so for example, women would not be allowed to take the collection plate up in a church. I know other churches and indeed women who’ve said to me, I’ve been taught that I must never pray before a man in a prayer meeting, that you must always let a man pray first.

[31:46] And, you know, again, other churches where a woman couldn’t read the Bible as a public reading of Scripture. And these are all, and I, you know, I want to be right in saying that the men who are leading these churches are, I think, being diligent in trying to understand what complementarianism is. But I would suggest that something’s gone wrong there in the understanding of biblical complementarianism, that there’s a functionality that’s being applied that is not applied in scripture.

[32:20] And I think that’s where, you know, we’re just not talking about it. I was on the faculty of Kiel for a long time. I often ask students where they were taught about complementarianism and pretty much without exception, it came back to me that it was in a camp context. So on a camp’s kind of ministry, which is obviously, you know, a week away in the summer. Maybe you’ve done that for, you know, six years, but it’s not embedded in the beauty of the local church, congregationally and familially, in the family. That came out wrong. And, you know, so lots of, and particularly young men at that stage, I think, were seeing a very specific communication around complementarianism, but never had a chance to see it worked out. And that then becomes translated into people who will lead churches, who’ll become elders, pastors, PCC members in churches of the future. And I think it’s probably really incumbent on us as kind of leaders now, and as those who perhaps have a slightly more, I guess, a greater opportunity to speak to people more broadly about some of this, to really teach biblically and clearly on what this means in our churches, in our lives, in our homes.

[33:45] Yeah, so my reflection is probably at a much bigger level of, yeah, we can do some of this in the local church and we absolutely should do some of this in the local church, but I think we need to think much more broadly And perhaps in a kind of UK context, because much of what we have comes from an American context, which is just a hugely different culture, environment, not least, it’s just a much bigger country.

[34:11] That actually we need to think very specifically for such a time as this, as to what does this mean in our churches here and now. That that’s super helpful because i think often when we look over to america you see the kind of.

[34:26] The polarized ends of the debate and then i look over and think goodness i could never be one of those sort of trad wives you know wears linen dresses and has 17 children and yeah that i mean that that obviously i’m i’m not representing um most americans particularly fairly there and there’s nothing wrong with having with doing that either yeah i suppose although let me just cut in there, Lizzie, again, thinking about the next generation, this is where I’m pretty concerned, actually, for our young women, because I’ll spend a lot of time thinking about social media, and there are certain representations of womanhood now appearing very prolifically on social media, which actually chime reasonably well with some sort of complementarianism. But if it’s an untaught and undeveloped theological complementarianism, you will be inclined to just embrace the trad wife role open-handedly. And actually, it’s not biblical either. It might be beautiful contextually in that home, in that church family, but that particular cultural expression of womanhood is again not biblical. Now, I’m not saying there’s not biblical elements of it, but that is not the model of biblical womanhood that we need to help our girls think about.

[35:46] So I’m thinking very much that perspective and, you know, helping them to understand the cultural expressions of womanhood. It’s very fascinating that polemically we’re moving from androgyny to a trad wife, that this is becoming attractive to women. And that’s because the kind of the story of the world in terms of you can have it all, you can have your career, you can have your family, you can manage a beautiful home, is crumbling for lots of women. And so our young women are thinking, where do I find myself in all this actually this trad wife thing looks much better and I’m fearful that yeah polemically we’re going to swing to that point now in conservative evangelicalism without really thinking carefully and training our our churches properly in this. Sure so kind of thinking does this kind of trend have longevity if it’s not rooted in the sort of biblical teaching in the in the cultural setup as well I think that that’s the question isn’t it because we’re in a, particularly vulnerable place when it comes to kind of you know being able to economically support a family it doesn’t mean it’s impossible yeah there are different challenges um that are within in our culture and we are just a very different place, as you say, politically, culturally.

[37:14] So what should churches be doing then, do you think, to intentionally encourage and equip men and women for their particular roles

[37:29] in ministry, but also then the home and in family? How can we be maintaining those biblical distinctions in our context?

[37:42] I think in most of our churches that we’re talking about here will be a male-dominated leadership so where in your church can you be listening to and valuing female voices how can you be encouraging men and women to partner together for the gospel you know how can you be.

[38:02] Um facilitating that relationship nurturing that relationship that actually you know the the body of Christ is maimed when any of its members are um not able to serve fully or serve well or not heard um and so I think particularly for leadership teams and and where I’ve seen this kind of you know a biblical complementarianism work really well and thrive and really you know in a local context is you know when there is the leadership team partnering with women who are maybe already on that leadership team or in their congregation um the church i was part of before i moved to edinburgh um the minister and um there is a a student and young adults worker called ann who is a fantastic um thinker she loves theology she um is so passionate about teaching and students and young adults and to be able to read their Bible as well and but her and the minister meet every week and still do to go over the sermon for the week and he will say this is what I’m looking at and ask for Anne’s perspectives you know she’ll read the passage before they come and they’ll talk through it and that will feed into what he is then teaching the church And I think having this, you know.

[39:25] Real picture of what like what are really easy opportunities for men and women to partner together, utilizing the gifts and skills that many women have. You know, most congregations will have women who are passionate about reading their Bible, who are able to understand and convey God’s word. So how can you bring that into the life of the church? How can you um also display that you know how can you actually showcase that this is something that happens um and almost starting like top down because if that is being modeled in the leadership that will filter into how men and women relate to one another and how they then um are able to, um connect over the bible how they are able to um share scripture together and in an equal way i think um something that i was always um insecure about in bible studies would be that if you know there was a man there that they would automatically have a better answer than me but actually god um allows us to work like encourages us to and be sharpening one another as brothers to be.

[40:40] Yeah nurturing that relationship so I think looking for easy ways I think also sometimes and probably this is very contradictory to everything that we’ve just said but actually removing gender can sometimes be really helpful and when you’re thinking in a leadership teams of oh you know what is this skill that we need to have what is this something who in your congregation male or female is someone who has that that fits within you know the complementary roles that are specifically given but quite often um you know it will i’ve been in many conversations where i work predominantly with ministers um and quite often i will be the only um one in the room on boards and things um and it’s so you can just see the difference when someone has been asked to give an opinion to speak into a situation or to be part of a leadership discussion who has the skills and given rather than being like oh we should probably have a woman in this space so let’s ask someone um and i think just yeah looking at the people you have looking at you know how can you use their god-given um potential in that situation and sometimes i do think that um being intentional about being like oh help we’ve not had a woman in this conversation you know it would be helpful to bring someone in but bringing men and women in for what they are bringing yeah yeah not not just by virtue of.

[42:08] Their sex or another immutable characteristic absolutely yeah yeah no i i couldn’t agree i couldn’t agree more there i think that’s um a really helpful point um because god it god has gifted us as individuals and of course he has given us our sex for a reason but absolutely we don’t need to be a part of a quota do we no i think that’s and there are spaces where it’s really important to distinguish that but there’s also spaces where it’s actually not really of course absolutely so in terms of equipping women for ministry what can we be encouraging churches to um sort of pursue you know is it that we should be saying well if a woman can do it if they can read the bible if they can pray in an open meeting we should all i mean yeah again this kind of goes against perhaps what we’ve just been saying but how can churches intentionally equip women for appropriate ministry?

[43:06] Look, I think it is a big think through of how do we train and support women to begin with. So lots of women, I guess, particularly in clearly complementarian churches will feel underskilled if they are asked to step up in service in some way. So actually to skill women up in anticipation of serving. And that could mean a training morning at church or could mean something more significant. You know, wonderfully, lots of gospel partnership courses are full of women equipping themselves biblically, and there’s other such courses available.

[43:41] I think it does, you know, as Rhiannon said, it takes some reflection on, What is represented at the front of our church? Sadly, I’ve been hearing from people recently, actually, who are moving from churches that are complementarian and sometimes to other complementarian churches, but because of things like it is exclusively only men who do things at the front of church. And that’s not just preaching, that’s everything. And they have young girls who are asking questions about why is there no representation of me being seen at the front of church. So to think carefully about who is at the front of our services, who is involved, where are their female voices, and to encourage women in that. Again, not just to fill a kind of rota or quota, but to say, you know, you’re valuable in this and, you know, you bring a diversity, a beauty, a different perspective. You know, we can have a woman doing an interview, I firmly believe we could have a woman reading. We can have a woman leading our prayers. And that does depend a little bit on our denomination, but perhaps a family leading our prayers.

[44:54] Women in the band, women, you know, let’s make sure we’re clearly using the gifts that God has given us in our church family. And just to step back a little bit, Lizzie, I was thinking that we do need much

[45:07] more preaching and teaching about this in our churches. I think it should be part of marriage prep, which I’m not sure it is. And I think it should be part of prenatal care. What, you know, what does this look like as you have children? So I think there’s lots of areas that this comes into.

[45:26] Again, my own bias, but I think in children’s and youth ministry to think a little bit about it. You know, one of the things that I tried to help parents reflect on is what does it look like to raise girls and what does it look like to raise boys traditionally in in kind of our part of the western culture that’s been completely flattened um it’s just everyone’s the same and you know to be really helping people to ask those questions and to not be fearful of discussion around us you know what does it look like yeah yeah yeah yeah we can be really squeamish can’t we when it comes to this and we recently did um a series in our church actually and we we had four Sundays where we looked through kind of God’s good design for men and women um and it sparked some really interesting discussions because we have quite a few new Christians um new people in our church who’d never really thought about this before but it was really just an introduction um to actually think about how that’s played out in practice in application I think we’ll take a bit more kind of discipleship and some some conversations and I think the other thing you know when it comes to men and women they are of course they are.

[46:41] They have different roles, but they are equally in need of excellent Bible instruction and training. And actually, for women to study the Bible really seriously can only be good for her, for her family, for whatever role she’s doing. So I think that women should be considering, you know, taking that to another level if they have the opportunity.

[47:07] Um that’s not just something for men who are going to be you know the kind of the ministers of the preachers actually everyone needs excellent um bible teaching so that they can be you know those that will pass on accurate um teaching to to others as well to other women to their children and to young people etc i think that’s i do i do wonder if actually kind of anecdotally but i I think this is true, that it is actually more of our women who are taking that kind of stuff seriously. One of the common reflections on the church more broadly is the feminization of the church.

[47:47] But I do know in conservative evangelical churches, it is the women who are much more engaged in kind of training, equipping. And then there’s a disparity at that level within the congregation level. And women feeling that they then theologically are kind of more equipped than their husbands often.

[48:08] And again, I think that’s something for pastors, ministers to have their eye on. You know, is there a growing distance between a man and a wife in biblical knowledge and biblical understanding? You know, who’s defaulting to who? How are they kind of working that out? You know, a woman who might be really diligently training and equipping herself and a man who is content not to. What does that look like then in the home? You know, to have all these conversations in an ongoing way, I think, need to be a feature of church life.

[48:40] Yeah, yeah. I think that’s where our sameness as children of God really comes into play of actually like, how are we discipling the church? How are we teaching the church? How are we teaching men and women? Because that’s a really interesting point about actually in different contexts. You know, for instance, in the free church, one of our biggest struggles is leaders. We cannot find male leaders. um you know we um have a vision of 30 new church plants by 2030 um and one and with like retirements with the church growing as a whole we need 20 70 new ministers by um that time i think in the next 10 years the figures probably changed a wee bit now um and we have no idea where they’re coming from you know and i think it’s a real stark calling to our churches to you know how do we raise up male and female leaders how do we raise up um you know this kind of um yeah.

[49:45] Calling to ministry and that looks very different to both men and women i think i think the barriers are very different but the issue is the same um you know like for women particularly you know quite often a lot of the barriers are funding opportunities particularly if a woman has family how do they get appropriate training when most things are you know day courses or things and and that’s not always possible so how do we make training accessible how do we make funding accessible for churches to fund roles um where women can be trained or um ministry in in this context in the church but also how do we yeah how do we build up the church to be serving and how do we get new leaders I don’t know if that’s the same in your context but it’s something we talk a lot about in ours yeah I would say that that’s that’s something that is also a real concern um where we are in in Yorkshire um but yeah I mean I think we’ll sort of bring this to a close now but I think it’s really clear that we are fully fully on board with the idea that complementarianism That reflects God’s design. It can bring about human flourishing.

[51:01] It can offer hope and encouragement in a world that perhaps is resistant to God. Gender or set you know roles are assigned to sexes um but there’s something i read um yesterday when i was just doing a little bit of prep for this and um there’s one chap i can’t remember his name he described missional complementarianism which probably feeds into what you’re saying riannon and he.

[51:31] Said he defined it as the belief that god has imparted significant differences between the.

[51:36] Sexes to one enhance each other in the mission of founding and extending bonds of natural kinship and two to emulate that mission where appropriate in the wider community and I just thought that was a really a really lovely way of describing how our convictions about men and women can be good for God’s kingdom but also in the wider world thank you so much ladies for

[52:03] for being with me on this call today and i hope and pray that your ministry.

[52:09] As women of god is is valued and um and honored in your context and uh yeah thank you for your your time and your thoughts thanks.