Podcast: Intertwining faith with politics

This article is part of the Affinity Talks Gospel Podcast series.

James Mildred from CARE discusses Christianity and politics, focusing on justice and applying biblical principles in public engagement for transformative change.

For this episode of Affinity Talks Gospel, hosts Lizzie Harewood and Graham Nicholls are joined by guest James Mildred from CARE. They discuss intertwining faith with politics, CARE’s mission, and the importance of engaging in politics with wisdom and upholding core biblical values. The conversation emphasises promoting unity amidst diversity, navigating political debates within families and churches, and actively participating in political discourse for the common good.

Find out more about CARE by visiting their website: ⁠https://care.org.uk/

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Topics addressed in this Podcast:

• Introduction to CARE and Its Mission
• Origins of CARE and its Evolution
• The Purpose, vision and mission of CARE
• Balancing Preaching the Gospel and Transforming Politics
• Discerning God’s Plan for Governance
• Navigating Differing Political Opinions Among Christians
• Challenges in Upholding Biblical Convictions
• Applying Biblical Principles to Policy Decisions
• Importance of Discussing Politics in Church
• Overcoming Squeamishness in Discussing Sensitive Topics
• Different Views in Public Ministry
• Making Sacrifices for Political Involvement
• Balancing Church Ministry and Serving in Politics
• Participating in Democratic Processes
• Supporting Political Outcomes for the Glory of God

Transcript

[0:00] Music.

[0:11] I’m Lizzie Harewood.
And I’m Graham Nicholls. And you are listening to Affinity Talks Gospel, a podcast where we interview various of the Affinity partners, the Affinity members, the Affinity friends, and we talk about what they’re doing and how the gospel is impacting their ministry and their lives and how we can pray for them and how we can get involved.
So today, it’s my pleasure, it’s my delight, I’m very excited to be introducing James Mildred from CARE. and he’s going to talk about stuff to do with care and stuff to do with politics. So welcome, James.
Well, thank you very much, Graham and Lizzie. Great to be with you and I match your delight.
I am just as delighted, if not more so, to be on a podcast with you both.
What a thrill, particularly you, Graham, because you’re a media star.
That may be true, but only in my imagination.

[1:05] Okay, so James, tell us a real little bit about yourself.

[1:09] Well, I’m from Scotland, from Edinburgh, born and raised. My dad was a Baptist minister.
And then I moved to London after I finished university. I moved to London to start working for CARE in 2014.
I was there for a couple of years.

[1:26] And then I moved to a church north of Bristol in a place called Yate.
And I did some training with a view to going into full-time church ministry and then God had other ideas and I got called back to care in the summer of 2018 and I’ve been back at care living in London going to church in London ever since question I haven’t actually asked you before when when did you become a Christian or how did you become a Christian so I was probably about about seven, eight years old.
And it was as simple and yet as beautiful as I think God had begun working in my heart.
And I’d been paying far more attention to the preaching in church and understanding it more.
And I remember one sermon where the preacher was talking about how you became a Christian.
And he sort of leaned over the side of the pulpit and said, all you need to do is ask Jesus into your life.
And so that night on my bed, I asked Jesus into my life and I’ve been a Christian ever since, baptised by immersion at the age of 14, which was a very memorable day.
And I’ve been following Jesus ever since.

[2:35] And James, did you always have an interest in politics?
Did you study it at university or is that something that kind of arose a bit later on for you? Yeah.
I think looking back when I was at school, particularly at primary school, I think you could see the beginnings of it.
I think it was a kind of interest in debating and talking and challenging and basically having my voice heard, if I’m honest with you.
In secondary school, that looked like being the only openly conservative supporting person in the class.
And that was not always out of conviction. It was also out of trying to be difficult and trying to be provocative and enjoying the fact that we did this exercise one time where the teacher would ask us, which policy did we support?
And you had to hold up a paddle.
And I was consistently the only one holding up the conservative paddle, which honestly was more about standing out than it was about because that’s everything I believed.
And then my parents were fairly political. My dad read The Telegraph every single day, big fanboy of Maggie Thatcher.
And so when I went to university, studied history, specialised in contemporary political history, loved it and then did an internship with a Christian member of the Scottish Parliament in my final semester at university every Thursday.

[3:50] Really enjoyed that and actually my first job then was in first serious job outside of university.
I did 10 months in the retail sector in a tourist shop on Edinburgh’s Princess Street, wearing a kilt, selling whiskey and kilts.
And then in October, no, March 2014, I became a press officer for the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party in the Scottish Parliament.
And so turns out all of those convictions at school, which I just labelled as non-convictions, maybe there was some truth in them back then, but I just want to say publicly on the record, I have become a lot more balanced as I’ve got older.
Great to know.

[4:31] And you work for CARE, in fact, worked for them twice, went back for more.
So what does CARE do? Tell us a little bit about CARE.
Yeah, so CARE stands for Christian Action Research and Education.
And it grew out of a movement called the Nationwide Festival of Light, which really began formally on the 25th of September, 1971.
There was a big gathering in Trafalgar Square where I think there was a conscious, awakening among evangelical Christians and denominations that big social changes had been taking place in the United Kingdom.

[5:09] Politics had been happening, but the church had been quiet and not engaged and not involved.
And so this demonstration was trying to address that. And so they came together, Trafalgar Square, more than 10,000 Christians all over the country gathered, and they were just trying to send a message that they cared about the country, they cared about politics, and they believed that the Bible and God’s word had some things to say about what was going on in the politics of the nation.
And after about a decade of grassroots campaigning, looking to galvanise Christians, then the name was changed from the Nationwide Festival of Light to Christian Action Research and Education, which it has been ever since.
So we celebrated our 40th anniversary last year and it was a great,

[5:53] great celebration. Praise God for his faithfulness.
That’s really interesting. Sorry, Graham. I was just going to say…
I didn’t realise that that was the kind of origin, the beginning story of care, because I know a lot of what you guys do, and particularly some of the work you do with those other agencies associated like Pray for Schools with Celia Bowering, who I found to be a wonderful encouragement.
So it’s great to know that background. Sorry, Graham. No, you’re all right.
I was only going to say something rather flippant, which was neither of you two were born then, were you?

[6:25] And um sadly or gladly i was born then but i was a child uh and i don’t really remember it but i i do remember the beginnings of graham kendrick and cliff richard various people uh who sort of got into gospel-y stuff so i sort of remember my parents being a kind of fan of that sort of thing that was happening and so but i think i more know it like a lot of things when you’re a child you kind of know it because you got told about it later if you know what i mean so you You think you remember it, but you don’t really.
So it was quite a big thing in Christian circles. I grew up in Brethren churches, so I don’t know what that means really, but it means they were kind of open to anything good that was happening.
They were really into Billy Graham and anything kind of – Brethren, if they’re not the kind of exclusive type, tended to be fairly generous about anything gospel-y that was happening.
So, yes, that’s when it started, or at least when the idea was formed.
And then you say 10 years later, it actually started after that.

[7:23] And what’s the point of it?
That’s the point of it, yeah. It’s a great question. So at CARE, we have a vision line, which is all in vogue now. It’s all the rage.
But our vision is that we want to see politics renewed and lives transformed.
And this is a really important point, which is I think we go wrong when we think politics is simply personalities.

[7:48] Power grabs, and all of the the kind of scheming and plotting that goes on in Westminster.

[7:55] At its most basic and its most simple, politics is about people coming together to make decisions about how are we going to live as a society, as a group of different people from different places, but have come together to share this land, as it were.
How are we going to structure and order our lives?
And I think when you when you look at it like that the connection between politics and the lives of human beings made in god’s image becomes far sharper and much more evident and that’s why if we see politics improved and the decision making process improved and the um we see a politics where men and women are able to hold deep convictions but are able to express them with kindness and with generosity towards others, we’ll see improved lawmaking.
And we’ll also see the Christian perspective, I think, being more influential in the corridors of power.

[8:55] And that then has a ripple effect for men and women, boys and girls across the country.
So our vision is to see politics renewed and lives transformed.
We think that God’s word has something to say about the big things of our day.
So our mission is to speak God’s better story into a broken world, to a broken world.
And we have three things that we do. We engage the church.
We love local churches, want to partner with them, serve them, equip them.

[9:23] And then we also equip politicians. We get alongside members of the House of Parliaments, in the Commons, the Lords, and Scottish Parliament, Welsh Parliament, Northern Ireland Assembly, now it’s back sitting.
We look to resource our brothers and sisters there and help them speak out on key things in big debates.
And then we also want to empower future leaders as well.
So a big thing that we’ve done over the last 30 years is invest in a leadership program where we take Christian graduates fresh out of university, and the first thing they do is they join us for a year.
We arrange for them to have a placement, usually in parliament, though not exclusively. You can be placed with an NGO as well.
And then every Friday during term time, you come together into the care office and you receive training and teaching from Christian thinkers, experts, and that kind of thing.
So there are three things that we do, engage the church, equip politicians, empower future leaders, and that vision again, to see politics renewed and lives transformed.

[10:22] That’s so inspirational yeah but why don’t you just preach the gospel what why do we want to kind of transform politics don’t we just want there to be just more christians and then they, go into politics and you know things get better yeah so i always start by massively affirming what you’ve just said how can i not i’m a follower of jesus i’ve read my bible i see the great commission matthew 28 go into all the world make disciples from all nations baptizing them in name name of the father, the son, and the spirit.
And as a good Baptist, that is exactly what I want to do.
And I think that is, and I would go as far as to say, I do think that remains a priority for the church, that we are to be word-based and we’re to be spirit empowered and we are to proclaim Jesus Christ. We’re his ambassadors, we’re his witnesses.

[11:08] But I think when you read the whole Bible, there is a bigger story going on, which is not only are we to preach and proclaim Jesus But if you go right the way back to the very beginning, when God made human beings, when he made man and woman, Genesis 1, 26, 27, he made them in his own image.
So that means that there’s something God-like about human beings.
We mirror something of the glory and magnificence of our creator God. God.
And the first thing that God does after he makes men and women in Genesis 1, 28, is he blesses them.
And that is so hugely significant that the intention of God for human beings is that they would live in a blessed, in a state of favor with him.
And then he gives them work to do and they’re to go out and they’re to subdue the earth and they’re to have dominion.
And I call this and others have called it before me, the first Great Commission.
Because we think that God is in the business of renewing the whole cosmos, renewing not just rescuing human lives, but actually the resurrection of Jesus was the new world breaking into this world.
The work of renewal has begun already.

[12:21] God calls us to obey not just the Great Commission, Matthew 28, but also in Jesus, empowered by the Spirit, to obey the first Great Commission as well.
That we are to use our time and our talents to make a genuine difference in every part of society, to be a distinctive witness, to be a distinctive voice for Jesus in the arts and in science and in technology and so on and so forth.
And for care, why would we not apply that to politics as well?
Also very briefly jesus says that we’re the salt of the earth and the light of the world we are change makers just by being christian it’s fascinating he doesn’t say this is how you become salt and light he just says you are by being united to to him uh but also if you think about the command love the lord your god with all your heart soul body mind and strength and so on the second great commandment love your neighbor as yourself and again i can’t stress this enough we need to remember the connection between politics and people’s lives.
At CARE, we talk about the fact that we are for people before we are for parties or policies or whatever.
And that is to protect this idea that politics and people, they’re intimately connected.

[13:35] One way I love my neighbor in obedience to Jesus is I have an interest and taken interest in the laws that are being passed.
And an organization like CARE can help you understand how does this law directly impact your neighbor where you are so obviously care is non-partisan as you just explained and yet there will be christians who have quite different opinions on how we are to fulfill that creation mandate um and so if it’s true then that we are permitted to hold that that authority under God’s sovereign will.

[14:14] How do we discern as Christians what is in accordance with his plan for mankind to govern and uphold justice in society today?
I think that in order to understand those things, then what is absolutely mission critical is a clear understanding of the word of God, precisely why we need churches, It’s why we need to be committed and joined with local church and ideally in some form of membership.
I’m admitting I’m allowing my ecclesiology to burst out of me. How can I stop myself?
But I think that’s really important because that’s where we are taught.
We’re discipled in the context of local church, sitting under faithful men who proclaim the word of God to us. Really, really important.
And I and I think that when you look at the Bible.
God’s pattern, his design, his sovereign will for human flourishing, critical to that are the very first chapters of Genesis, where we find the kind of foundational ordinances that God gives.
The fact that human life is valuable, that it has a dignity beyond that of anything else in creation.
The way I like to think of it is our God is a God of life, and it’s actually sin that brings death into the world.
And death is of the devil. It’s of the evil one.

[15:34] But God, even though sin came into this world in Jesus, he’s restoring eternal life to men and women, boys and girls every single day.
And his plan and his purpose for human beings is that we might live a life that is ultimately in fellowship with him.
But actually from Genesis 1 and 2, that we should live a life where the value of our life is respected, where we are able to use our gifts and our talents, where we’re able to go out and work and we’re able to serve other people in our community.
That’s not just something God wants for Christians. That’s something he wants for every member of the human race.
I mean, Paul in Acts 17, for example, he talks about how God is in some sense, the father of all human beings.
And of course, in a very special sense, the father of his children.
But that kind of idea of what we call common grace, that God gives good gifts to all that he has made.
The teaching of Psalm 8, that human beings have been crowned with glory and honor, just below the angels, or in some translations, just lower than God himself.

[16:40] The fact that Psalm 139 tells us we’re fearfully and wonderfully made, all of this is telling us that human life is intrinsically valuable.
And so a big part of what God wants for human beings is that we might have life, that we might be able to go out and live life in the context of safe, stable relationships, and that we might be able to use our time and our talents to bless and to serve people around us.
And so that is what God wants for human beings.

[17:08] That’s what we think human flourishing is that’s the better story from god’s words and part of care’s mission is to communicate that story in a relevant way to a whole variety of audiences both christians and non-christians so i think the word of god is our indisputable guide i i guess behind liz’s question would might be uh i might be speaking for her but is drilling down even further to say that is visionary by the way i’m asking all the adversarial questions um absolutely just to promote like you you graham i don’t like you to put me on the spot like this the good stuff uh coming out of you so i i agree with the the the vision um and so on i think it is not always easy to work out the balance and it is always easy to see salvation in in some um uh political solution or some societal solution that salvation and you know uh because in a sense it’s easier to achieve than salvation in christ and seeing people saved

[18:04] it’s easier to kind of make their lives slightly better but i I totally agree with the vision.
I think where it’s harder, which perhaps was behind Liz’s question, is specifically how much income tax to charge or whether we should have unlimited immigration or limited immigration.

[18:21] On those issues, you could say I totally agree with the big vision.
But when I ground that, I think the nation state is important.
So I think closed borders are good. Or I think welcoming refugees is a biblical principle.
So I think anyone should be able to come here. And so people will land in different places, won’t they, on those issues?
That’s kind of what I was inferring. So, for example, I have wonderful in-laws who are Christians and who I deeply love and respect.
And yet we would land on very different places when it comes to political kind of ideas about certain social issues or immigration or big state small state those kinds of things um but yeah i still respect them and i know that they are you know they they hold biblical convictions but yet we come to these different conclusions.
How does care then help to develop and nurture those two.

[19:26] Sometimes opposing ideals within Christians and still maintain a sense of biblical conviction?

[19:34] It’s a massive question. It’s not easy and we do it imperfectly.
I think just quickly coming back to, I guess, the point around what can we expect in terms of justice and renewal in this life before Jesus comes back.
I think that, to be absolutely clear, that the great hope of humanity is the return of Christ.
It’s the fact that this world will be renewed when he comes back.
I think that between now and then, some of this will depend on your particular sort of eschatology, your view of the end times.
You might lean more towards a positive view or a negative view.
Personally, I think all Christians should be optimists. I think the fact that we have the Spirit, the fact that God is on the throne, and the fact that we can see laws passed that do justice.
I mean, we saw a great example of that in Northern Ireland, for example, 2015.

[20:28] CARE was very, very involved. In fact, we drafted the legislation that became Northern Ireland’s Human Trafficking and Sexual Exploitation Act.
This is a law that has helped to deliver a form of justice for confirmed victims of modern slavery in Northern Ireland.
I think about stuff that’s happening around protecting children online line and the success of getting age verification finally passed and on the statute book.
Just need to have it implemented now. That’s the next big challenge.
But that is another example of a positive thing from a Christian perspective.
But that’s got to be set aside the challenges that we’re facing.
The fact that Christian teaching on sexuality and identity is increasingly viewed as moronic, let alone…

[21:09] Uh, good or, or even perhaps before it was viewed as weird. Now it’s viewed as harmful.
So there’s the good and there’s the good and the evil rising together, the wheat and the tares rising together.
Um, I think when it comes to the different views, Christians come to on things like immigration and income tax, for example.
So I think that it is entirely legitimate that we come to different conclusions on those things.
I think one of the amazing distinctive contributions that that Baptist political theology has made to the Christian church is a real emphasis on the conscience and on the fact that we have freedom in Christ under his words to come to different places and that we must respect one another and that we can learn from one another on that.
And I also think that what Tim Keller would call diagonalizing, where what you essentially can do as a Christian is you can, rather than signing yourself up as, oh, I’m right wing or, oh, I’m left wing, you actually have freedom in Christ to say, there are elements of a Labour Party agenda and program that I can really connect with, you know, an emphasis on really helping and supporting those who are furthest from justice.
That is something that I think I see in the Bible I can support.
And then at the same time, I can look at what’s happening on sort of of the right.
And I can think that emphasis on responsibility, on human responsibility, that’s something I can connect with as well.

[22:33] And yet I can also critique those worldviews. I can critique those ideologies.
I can say, well, where do they go wrong? Is there too much emphasis, too much hope placed in the power of the state and the government on the left side?
And is there not enough emphasis placed on really helping people who it’s no good just saying, well, it’s your responsibility.
They need help. They need support. They need love. they need.
So I’m kind of in a really privileged place where I can.

[22:59] Prayerfully talking with others, have the freedom not to sign myself up as left or right, but to go, I can see good in both ideologies.
I can see things that are wrong in both ideologies.
And I’ve always found that personally a really helpful way of thinking about these things.

[23:13] And at the same time, I think the great principle is where there is real clarity in the Bible.
So the value of life for me is something the bible is clear on life begins at conception life should travel through to its natural end for me that’s that’s a non-negotiable that’s not a left-right thing that is a biblical teaching and so therefore there is no room for me to take another view on that um which is an unpopular thing to say but that’s what i think whereas the bible doesn’t give us a blueprint for how do we do income tax it gives us principles and so we need to discern from those principles and then pray and then talk with others.
And just that final point is so important. So often what I think Christians do is they kind of do their politics alone.
They do it in their bedrooms, as it were. They do it on their laptops, on their iPads, and they don’t ever, ever talk.

[24:10] Politics is part of local church life. It should be.
We should talk within that safe safe context with our brothers and sisters in the local church going, yeah, I’m really, really grappling with this because I keep seeing all these things about how the Palestinians are suffering massively in Gaza at the moment.
And my heart’s breaking.
But then I’ve spoken with this other person. They’re telling me that we mustn’t forget the trauma that Israel suffered in October when the terrorist attacks happened.
And I’m just really, what do I do?
And the church should be the place where we’re able to talk about those things.
I think you’re saying right there and I think.

[24:46] One of the things as Christians we fall into is either being perhaps overly combative.
We can be keyboard warriors as much as anyone else, assertively confrontational.
But then often in the church on a Sunday or on a Sunday evening or at home group, we can be passively neutral.

[25:08] And we don’t want to touch these things because they’re too hot.
And i certainly know that my husband who’s a church minister he gets a bit a bit scared of raising political issues that don’t have necessarily a very clear biblical answer because he doesn’t want to alienate how can we get over that squeamishness do you think and and should we be um how can yeah should we be talking about these things that can be quite sensitive in in a church context?

[25:40] Yes, yes, yes, yes. We absolutely should. But I totally get it.
I have perhaps the greatest privilege of my life alongside being a husband is serving as an elder in the church that I’m part of.
And I think people sometimes hear that and think, oh, Trinity Road Chapel, South West London, you must be talking about politics all the time because look, there’s James and he can… That’s not true.
And when you’re preaching from the front, when you’re doing public ministry, You absolutely are conscious that in front of you, there are men and women with different views, different opinions. You don’t want to alienate.
What I would say is, I think, again, coming back to that principle, where the Bible is clear, I think we can be as clear as the Bible is and we can be as strong as the Bible is.

[26:25] When it comes to those topics where Christians can legitimately come to different views, and even this touches on some things where Christians really should think in a similar way, but maybe don’t, I think that you can touch on them in the public ministry, but far better is to use your small group model or, for example, a seminar style where you’ve got more time to work through the issues.
You can take feedback, you can listen.
I’m bound to say this, right? Right. Because I am paid to say this.
And I do also think it as well, that sometimes there’s an advantage for churches in having someone from, say, an organization like CARE come and do that seminar for you.
Because that just two reasons.
One, it kind of can depersonalize it a little bit.
And it’s far better for the minister and the eldership if people are annoyed at this external person who’s come in and annoyed at them. But secondly, it allows them to listen and hear what’s being said, if it is a seminar style thing.
And that could be so helpful as they think, right, that’s fascinating.

[27:28] What issues are coming out that actually we need to do some more thinking about, some more work on? when you’re delivering the content yourself, frankly, you’re just focused on getting your content delivered.
You don’t really have the bandwidth to necessarily process what’s coming back at you.
So again, it’s another reason why I think it can be helpful to have a group like Care come alongside.
But the squeamishness as well, I think, is if we don’t start talking about these things, if we don’t practice talking about them, we’re going to stay squeamish.
It’s a bit like evangelism.
The best cure for lacking confidence in evangelism is just to do it.
Like go and knock on some doors. That’s a great way to bust out, bust us out of our kind of little, I can’t do it.
I can’t. No, you can, you absolutely can. We just got to do it.
It’s really interesting.
James will know because he’s come to our church that we, we do do those kinds of seminar style things.
And I suppose now you’re talking, I’m thinking we’ve got to get him back because we did a life issues one, which is probably uncontroversial, doesn’t require great thought it’s more of an information how to pray how to campaign kind of thing and and um uh where i was talking about gaza and israel is is more nuanced um and so on and i it just it occurred to me i was just thinking do we do this in our church and i think we do a little bit but i was thinking my family i’ve got grown-up children and um we have around you know family dinner tables, debated politics.

[28:55] When the Gaza thing happened, we had lots of discussion about what’s happening and lots of Googling and trying to figure out what was the history of Israel.
I’ve forgotten bits of it and all that kind of thing.

[29:09] Similarly, with Brexit, people in my family voted differently.
One of the married couples, one of my children’s married, and him and his wife voted differently.
I had to actually go and vote for them because they were away at the time.
I I had to go and vote one way for one and one way for the other as their proxy vote, which I thought was a waste of time anyway, because they cancelled each other out.
But it was still their vote. So I respected that and did it.
But in a family, I mean, I know some families it’s terrible, but in our family we can debate it because I’m always right.
But I don’t know, we should do that in the church family, really.
It just occurred to me that we have those discussions and they’re fine.
And, you know, we have a bit of an argument and disagree and it’s all fine.
Fine and um but it’s it kind of moves you on so i’m i’m really in favor of it and i’m i’m getting more in favor of it having listened and thought about it a little bit more um those kind of discussions i think most churches pray about big things that are happening yeah um but and often the prayer gives kind of some signal perhaps um but yeah we don’t talk about it partly it’s a a matter of time but yeah then we could do more and what about those christians who perhaps feel.

[30:19] That they have some mandate or desire to go a step further and actually come down on one side, align with the party and serve God through that avenue.
Because I felt very, very strongly that many Christians are, again, too squeamish to actually go into politics.
And I remember after reading Tim Farron’s book, A Wicked Business, he was pointing out that very issue that, you know, we’re scared to choose a side because, you know, again, we might be seen as alienating others, whatever.
What advice would you give for Christians who are perhaps thinking about pursuing a political career or at least getting more involved in politics?
And Tim, I was just Tim Brown says, well, yes, people feel that it is a mucky business that is blighted by sleaze and scandal and combative exchanges.
But he said, everything is affected by the fall.
Everything that we engage with in society, the National Health Service, education, law, everything is impacted by the fall. And we don’t shy away from getting involved in those sectors.
So yeah, any advice for Christians out there?

[31:47] I think a number of things come to mind. Firstly, I think it’s fantastic if you are thinking about joining a political party, there is no biblical command not to do so. In fact, I would strongly encourage you to do so.
If you’ve reached a point where you feel your convictions under God and having taken counsel and talked to others align more with one party over another, then one of the first things you could do as a Christian is most mainstream political parties will have a Christian fellowship or some kind of Christian group.
So there’s the Liberal Democrat Christian Forum, there’s the Christians on the Left, and there’s the Conservative Christian Fellowship.
You could start simply by reaching out there.
I think if you are thinking about this, be prepared for a lot of hard work.
You need to be willing to pound the streets, knock on doors.
Just have a think as well.

[32:35] When I was training in a local church, we’d do door knocking on behalf of the church every week.
And around the same time, the MP at the time was a Conservative MP and he just reached out over Facebook because he saw that I used to work for the Scottish Tories up in Edinburgh and he was asking, would I be willing to go and campaign for him?
Now, that time I said no because I didn’t really want to be knocking on the same doors on one Thursday sort of going, I want to talk to you about your eternal soul the next day. I want to talk to you about tax policy.
I felt that was too big a conflict. So be wise about the footprint that your church might have in your local area. Think that through.
Talk with your elders. Please talk with your elders.
God has given them to you as a gift and they might not know the answer and they might not be much help.
But that’s a biblical step I think we should take. The other thing I would say is, you know, if you’re going to go into politics and let’s say you’ve got a family, you must make sure your family are on board.
They will make a huge sacrifice.
Westminster especially is not family friendly. Scottish Parliament is slightly more so, though not great.

[33:46] And you need to figure out what are you going to do to build in proper accountability?
What are you going to do to build in?

[33:53] That applies if you’re campaigning as well, to be honest with you, even before you become an MP, you’re going to have to give so much time to this.
So talk with your family, make sure they’re on board as well.
None of this is to put barriers in your way because we desperately need brothers and sisters in Christ to go into politics at a local level, council level, maybe start there as well.
That’s another route in and in the national parliaments as well, because I’ve seen time and time again that when issues come up that no one else is willing to touch, it is Christians who, and even if this is all they’re able to do, they’re able to make a stand and articulate in a debate the biblical worldview using wise language and do so in a compassionate but clear way.
Who knows what God could do with that? And that’s faithful to him, right?
That’s obedient to him. And the final thing I’d say is this is something that has always been part of care’s DNA as an organization.
And I pay tribute to our co-founder, Lyndon Bowering, who I think really helped install this within care, which is that.

[34:58] When we look at John 1.14, we read that Jesus came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
And I think that combination of you can absolutely hold strong views as a Christian.
In fact, you should hold strong views as a Christian.
And then some of us have a temperament where we hold strong, strong views on things.
But all of us, whether we’ve got a big personality or an introverted personality, whether we’ve got strong, strong views or just strong or moderate views, we should hold them with grace and we should extend that grace towards others.
So if you’re going to go into politics, I think as a Christian, one of the distinctive ways that you stand out is you are one of the first to be willing to listen to the views of others and not just view it as a soapbox for you to kind of chat about what you want to talk about.

[35:44] Do you speak to people who say, just too busy with church life?

[35:48] Because that’s what people in my own church here would say. i uh i was pondering the other day that there’s uh the secretary of the mosque who i who i know a little bit from some joint discussions we’ve had and a recent funeral i was there and i was chatting with him again at the funeral and i realized he was a local counselor um and i thought this is a mosque which is not as big as our church you know the secretary of the mosque is a local counselor and no one in my church is a local counselor no one in any of the churches in this area are on the council as far as I know and I know I’ve been here quite a while so I know quite a lot of people but I was thinking why why is that is it just that he’s got more time uh is he got more conviction about it um you know what are we all doing so and I and I do know that the the active people in the church are active um and they’re telling me about kind of various church ministries and other commitments they’ve got through through the week and if I if I go to to most of them and say yeah do you want to be a school governor do you want to be a local councillor they’ll say but when when when we’re going to do that so do you have people who say that sort of thing yes yes um absolutely and i do wonder this is a bit of speculation here i’d be fascinated what you think um i do wonder whether that is partly a problem that we’ve sort of created in our church cultures where we equate busyness with holiness and we go you know the the busier we are, the more we’re serving, the holier, the more obedient, the better we are.

[37:16] And when in 2022, I had the privilege of going to Capitol Hill Baptist Church in America, Washington, DC, the home of politics in America.
And what was really interesting to me was.

[37:30] This was a church that has a real big emphasis on ecclesiology, on the doctrine of the local church, on committed membership, and so on and so forth.
But they had a really healthy understanding that many of their members work in politics and work in very, very demanding jobs.
And so therefore, the expectation from the senior pastor down was, we understand that we might only see you once on a Sunday for the morning service, and then we may see you again during the week, possibly.
But actually, if all you can manage is that Sunday morning service, they have a proper two-hour service time with some fellowships sort of either side and all of that.
Now, I’m not saying that we need to just exactly copy that, but that mentality.

[38:12] I think, gives members permission not to kind of draw this false dichotomy between the only way I serve God is if I’m serving in ministries in a local church and then outside here, that secondary, that second class.
I think we want to re-teach the whole idea of vocation and say, actually, you know, this isn’t to say that you shouldn’t be serving and using your gifts.
But if we just say the use of gifts is within the context of the local church, we’ve missed something, right?
Like surely God has given us gifts that we should also be using out there as well in the world, being salt, being light and serving God in that way.
So I think there’s lots of things kind of tied up with that, basically.
And I just wonder if we need to give people permission that it’s okay if they come off that rotor and they come off that ministry, if they’re going to go and serve God by becoming a local councillor or a governor. I don’t know.

[39:06] That’s one of the ways I’ve tried to kind of answer that. I think it’s very

[39:09] possible that people are confusing busyness with holiness.
That’s possible. But I also think sometimes they’re just busy because they want to serve. and they are dedicated and they do see that as the way that they’re working out their faith.

[39:28] We had a discussion recently with evangelism and said, well, if we’re going to do all these things, how are we going to free everybody up?
I always lob in my once a year suggestion, which is why don’t we just close everything down entirely in terms of ministries apart from the Sunday preach and just let everyone do whatever they want sort of thing for a whole term or half a year or something.
And then everyone goes, no, no, no, but you’d lose all these contacts.
So it never actually happens.
I haven’t got that much power. But I always think it would be a good idea just to see what happens, just as a social experiment, close down every weeknight activity, children, youth, everything else, and just tell people to go and make friends, join clubs, do stuff.
The same would be for politics. Go on. My challenge, though, would be, so all those people who have a right attitude and want to serve, to be provocative, isn’t it easier to channel that energy into a sort of safe ministry within the local church, is to channel that energy into the hard yards of, the world of compromise and the mucky business of politics as Tim Farron would put it. Again, because you’re right.
As elders, as preachers, as Christians who’ve tried to disciple others, it’s so easy to end up beating people with a stick rather than trying to help them.

[40:47] So I take the point, you’re absolutely right. People want to serve.
It’s right that they How do we balance that between a legitimate service in the local church, which we don’t want to discourage, and yet, is it a risk thing?
Are people just settling for that because it’s a bit easier?
I feel critical saying that, but I’m just trying to understand why do we gravitate towards that rather than let’s get into local politics, let’s become a local councillor, for example.
Yeah, I think it’s right to critique it. It’s probably not so easy to actually understand the motivation.

[41:18] What’s your experience, Lizzie? you’re involved in a church, your husband’s a pastor, So we have lots of people in our church who are involved in other community action and school governors.
In fact, we make that. We do kind of encourage our members to take part in those kinds of things where they can.
In fact, I coerced my husband to be a school governor and he went on with it and he’s been there for a couple of years now.
But I think, again, it’s one of those things that Christians, particularly in the UK, maybe not so much on Twitter, but when it comes to real life, they feel a bit nervous of stepping out and aligning themselves with something

[42:10] that could be quite divisive.
Um i guess i wonder whether we’re perhaps trying to throw people into the deep end and actually i would say there’s a reticence to engage in democratic processes all together i was wondering how might you encourage our listeners to to have some kind of positive impact on political outcomes, without necessarily aligning with the party or you know becoming a local councillor What can people do to participate in the democratic process for the glory of God?
That is perhaps a good first step.

[42:47] A good first step is there’s plenty of opportunities in a normal year to, for example, respond to a consultation.

[42:56] And it might not even be necessarily on a kind of really controversial thing.
There are consultations happening all the time on so many things.
And one of the things we do at care is we we try to help you think through what are the better ones to to use your time on now sadly oftentimes at the moment they are fairly controversial things but that is a good first step secondly if you’ve never emailed or written to your mp that is a really clear and obvious thing that you can do and the more personal you can make it the better and and also the more you can engage constructively by being positive about the work that your mp is doing in your local area rather than just writing negatively as it were so definitely encourage that um i also think that you know we have a very clear command in the bible uh paul to timothy one timothy to pray for those in authority and i think the more we can make that a regular feature of um sunday services but also you know small groups or prayer meetings depending on how your church is set up.
That is another small but obedient step that we can take.
One of the things we often get told, rightly, is, does any of this make any difference? Because you write to your MP about, I don’t know, let’s say you write about abortion, for example, and nothing changes. In fact, if anything, things get worse.
And so then a kind of cynicism seeps in. And I used to kind of respond to that by being like, no, no, don’t be cynical. What are you talking? Come on.

[44:25] I felt it more and more the longer I’ve gone on at care.
And so now I try to kind of almost acknowledge it and say, look, I do understand why it can feel a bit pointless and a bit a bit fruitless, but I guess you apply the same principle we apply in our evangelism of the kind of the parable of the seeds of scattering the seeds and leaving God to ultimately give, give the result.
And I think the same applies to your engagement in politics.
So I want to temper my own optimism with a bit of realism as well, that you respond to a consultation, you write to your MP, don’t expect that the world will change the result of that.
But then again, if more Christians were are doing that and doing it well, who knows what God could do?
And I have heard amazing stories of Christians engaging well with their member of parliament.
And as a result, their MP coming to a church service and coming to an evangelistic event and just affirming the work of the church.
So again, as we look further ahead, as we maybe think pressure is going to grow on churches when it comes to our freedom of speech and things like that, a good constructive relationship with your your MP, might help when those times come.

[45:32] So there’s some of the ways. And again, it sounds a bit mundane and a bit boring, but I think it is vital because you’re speaking up for people who are often in real need of support and policy change.

[45:46] And so keep the people in mind when you’re doing these things.
Don’t just do it for your own conscience sake, but keep the end result.

[45:56] Which is that if this law doesn’t pass pass or does pass you know either way people are going to be blessed their lives are hopefully going to be be helped as a result really quick question does standing as an independent have any value or is that really a waste of time do you need the party machinery to get somewhere, I think if you are trying to stand for parliament, you need the party machinery.
I think if you’re standing at a more local level, then more independent approach might be viable because you’re less dependent upon party machinery in some senses.
I would also just caution against, this is very controversial, don’t dismiss Christian political parties, don’t think that’s right, but just remember and reflect on the reality of our voting system means that it is very, very, very unlikely at the moment that they will get representation at a national level.
Whereas you join, say, one of the mainstream parties, it’s a very pragmatic approach.
But the end result is we want to see Christians in Parliament.
So just think that through very carefully, though I understand why you might want to gravitate that direction.
Yeah, but I can also understand why someone might want to gravitate towards being independent, because it gets to Lizzie’s problem of you kind of align yourself with a party that’s hated by a group of people in the church.

[47:16] Shouldn’t be, but possibly is. I’ve got to say, that is not actually my problem.
That was just a proposition yeah well not as much your problem but in the sense that you were saying that people may have hesitancy or reticency perhaps it was a person was just a an idea but might hesitate because they don’t want to step out because they don’t want to say i’m a tory or i’m a labor or i’m a liberal and so then they’re labeled with everything that party does um so being independent has a value but if it pragmatic if it doesn’t work then kind of what’s the point um of doing that you’re not going to be any use um so perhaps you perhaps you do just have to align yourself with a with a party machinery uh we’re getting nearish to the end so uh a quick question james on um how can we support uh our christian politicians we talked about how we can engage with politicians in general but how can we support our christian politicians and i’ll ask you something about care.

[48:13] So I think when it comes to Christian politicians is, I think the first thing I’d say is show them grace.
They are often in very, very difficult positions.
And, you know, you might expect them to stand up and quote chapter and verse from the Bible in public debates, and they might disappoint you because that’s not how they tend to operate.
Let me just reassure you that behind the scenes, they are doing an enormous amount of good. So pray for them.
Pray that they’ll be given courage. Pray that if they’re married, that their marriages will be protected.
Westminster is a place full of temptation, and there’s some very sad stories in that regard.
So please pray for their protection and pray for heavenly wisdom as well.
A wisdom that will overcome their opponents and that actually will disarm them and win them favour in unexpected places.
So, yeah, I think they’re just some of the ways that you can pray for them and try to support them in that respect.
And look, even if they’re not your constituency MP, nothing to stop you writing to them as a brother and sister in Christ and just saying thank you for what you’re doing, praying for you. Yeah, that’s really good.
Tell us how we find out more about CARE.

[49:21] The best way to find out more about CARE is to go to our website, care.org.uk.
I think if you wanted to connect further with us, you’ll find us on social media.
So you’ll find us on X, on Facebook, on Instagram, on YouTube.
And if you sign up for our emails the great thing is they’re free and the other great thing about them is they’re packed full of prayer points but also where there are opportunities to take action and we try really carefully to choose strategic opportunities to take action then our emails will alert you to that so head to the website just sign up for emails you can unsubscribe at any time and if you’re a church member or you’re a church leader listening to this then then please reach out to us.
So mail at care.org.uk or on social media, and we have a church’s team ready and willing to come alongside you.
And even if it’s just to meet for a coffee, to talk through how do I raise this issue in my church context, we would love to meet you over coffee for that.
And if you want someone from Care to come and actually do some teaching and some preaching, whatever’s helpful, then again, we would love to partner with you in that respect.

[50:28] Yeah. And our experience as a local church is that that’s been a really good thing.
I both met with James for a coffee to chat about stuff and and he’s come along and spoken to us. That’s been really helpful.
Also, the link where you can kind of write to your MP actually on the care website works really, really well compared to some.
I know there was a bug on it when we tried to use it recently, but once the bug was cleared, it works really well. Well, lots of people said, oh, that was really easy to use.
Some of them are not quite so easy to use, but there was something, I don’t know what, technically or anything else, but it was a good link. Worked well.
And just in case you haven’t been listening in May, there’s a book coming out called Reasoning in the Public Square, which has a chapter on politics, which is behind me.
But I’m not quite so vain enough to go and reach it and talk about it, but it’s being published in May. So look out for that reasoning in the public square.
James, thank you very much.
It really has been our pleasure. All the excitement was worth it.
Really enjoyed that. So thank you very much and God bless you.
Thank you so much. Thank you, Graham.
Thank you, Lizzie. It’s been a real joy to spend this time chatting with you. Thank you.

[51:40] Music.

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[52:22] Music.