Podcast: Discussing abuse of power by church leaders

This article is part of the Affinity Talks Gospel Podcast series.

In this episode of Affinity Talks Gospel, Graham Nicholls hosts a conversation with guests Phil Swann and Catherine Haddow on the topic of abuse of power by church leaders and its impact on individuals and church communities. They discuss the importance of recognising unhealthy church cultures, the need for humility and servant-hearted leadership, and how to address trauma and abuse within church settings.

Phil Swann, a pastor with a background in psychiatry, emphasises the importance of self-awareness and Christ-like leadership. He highlights the need for church leaders to create a safe and understanding environment for those who have experienced trauma and abuse. Phil calls for a greater emphasis on ministry as service rather than success, promoting a compassionate and self-reflective approach to leadership.

Catherine Haddow, a Chartered Psychologist and founder of The Cornerstone, adds insights on trauma, triggers, and the healing process. She emphasises the importance of creating safety and stability for individuals who have experienced trauma, taking a careful and slow approach to address triggers and promote post-traumatic growth. Catherine stresses the significance of humility in church leaders, promoting a Christ-like attitude of empathy, self-awareness, and humbleness in their interactions with others.

The conversation delves into practical strategies for church leaders to address trauma, establish healthy church cultures, and promote healing and reconciliation. We advocate for a compassionate and understanding approach to leadership, grounded in humility and the example of Christ. They emphasise the need for leaders to foster a culture of restoration and healing within church communities.

Pick up a copy of our book Challenging Leaders at all good Christian bookshops.

Find out more about The Cornerstone at their website: the-cornerstone.net

Subscribe: Spotify | Apple Podcasts | YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

Topics addressed in this Podcast:

• Abuse of power discussion
• Leadership styles analysis
• Strong vs. abusive leadership
• Cancel culture in churches
• Whistleblowing and accountability
• Helping traumatised individuals
• Healing through Scripture and prayer
• Encouraging church family resolution
• Book recommendation – Challenging Leaders
• Characteristics of Christ-like leaders
• Conclusion and a call for humility

Transcript

[0:10] Hello, my name is Graham Nicholls. Welcome to Affinity Talks Gospel.

It’s a podcast where we talk to various Affinity members about how they’re seeking to live the gospel, to speak the gospel, to work out all the gospel challenges in their churches and with the people they interact with.

[0:28] And it’s my pleasure today to introduce a couple of guests, Phil Swann and Catherine Haddow.

And we’re going to talk about the general area of abuse of power by leaders and the effect that can have on themselves, but also particularly on the churches they seek to lead.

It grew out of a book that if you’re watching the video, you’ll see it come up on the screen, which is Challenging Leaders, which I helped to write along with a number of other authors, which was seeking to define the issue and give some advice in terms of healthy and unhealthy church culture and procedures and so on.

But we don’t particularly want to talk about the book today so much as the issues that it raises.

So, Phil, why don’t you just introduce yourself and your background a little bit, and then I’ll do the same for Catherine, and then we’ll get into the topic.

Thanks, Graham. My name is Phil Swann. I’m currently a pastor of a church in Llanelli in West Wales.

I’ve been in ministry since 1990.

[1:32] Prior to that, I worked as a chartered physiotherapist, and in God’s providence, I found myself pushed into an area which I never would have chosen which is the area of psychiatry and i was working in an academic unit in university hospital wales particularly at a time when ptsd became a diagnosis so my background really is that and that interest has always stayed with me in pastoral ministry brilliant thank you and uh Catherine, introduce yourself.

Thank you for having me. Yeah, I’m Catherine Haddow. I’m based in Trowbridge in Wiltshire.

My background was a secular psychologist for many years.

I was converted when I was a secular psychologist and really began to think about all of that biblically and what that meant.

For the past 10 years or so, maybe a bit less, I set up the Cornerstone is a ministry to support struggling believers um so so really using psychology background but very much under the authority of scripture and most of the work that i do now is in the area of trauma and abuse with spiritual abuse part of that yeah thank you uh.

[2:54] When you became a Christian, did you have a whole re-evaluation of the practices that you were following as a secular psychologist?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

But did you have a kind of throw the whole thing out moment and then a kind of re-replacing it all? How did that work?

So I know this is not what the podcast is about, but it just intrigued me. me yeah uh it was it you know i think when anyone is saved you re-evaluate and have a different perspective on everything don’t you so there was very much uh what do i do with that can i even work in this area anymore but um aside from that initial panic it then became well what is it that these psychological theories i was particularly working in cbt as a as a particular model but i What is it that these psychological theories are seeing that is biblical and good and right?

Where is it that they are pulling us away from scripture and we need to be cautious of?

And where is it that a personal relationship with Jesus Christ can offer so much more?

So over the years, that thinking just progressed and moulded things.

[4:10] Yeah, that’s a really interesting topic in itself. Well, we’re going to get into a little bit about leaders and abuse of power by leaders.

[4:20] Phil, I’ll help you out here and there, but do you want to try a bit of a definition or at least kind of circumscribe the problem and let us know whether it’s a biblical problem or it’s a kind of, you know, it’s only happened in the last 20 years or so.

What are we talking about when we talk about wrong behaviour by leaders?

Wrong behaviour by leaders is nothing new.

It’s always been there. The scriptures give us examples of that as well.

And certainly the exhortations to good behaviour are implicit within those, is that there can be bad behaviour.

I think culturally we’ve changed, certainly there’s been a growing awareness of thresholds in terms of what is acceptable and unacceptable societally.

[5:08] There are things, I grew up like yourself, I guess, Graham, a bit of a child of the 70s, and there were many things which were normal behaviour in the 70s, particularly in the way way in which women were often addressed, issues of race, and many issues in society which today are completely unacceptable.

And often there’s a challenge in an older generation to sort of come to terms with that.

I think with church, we’ve sort of been a bit slow with that, but there’s been a rapid increasing momentum in terms of awareness of what is acceptable and unacceptable behaviour in church leaders, by and large, it’s been very positive I think I think it’s taken us back to scripture it’s highlighted the need, for a servant-hearted approach to leadership and sometimes it’s highlighted very clearly areas where this has been lacking so overall i think it’s positive very positive, Yeah, I think part of the conviction, wasn’t it, in writing the book was that this is not a new problem.

It’s a spiritual problem that’s always been there.

Ezekiel with the terrible shepherds in Ezekiel and how Jesus addresses the Pharisees and so on.

[6:28] And because it’s a it’s a long-term sin problem uh we need to deal with it in in a spiritual way rather than rather than decide well this is completely new problem where we need in a sense secular models and procedures and policies that sort of protect us from all this but don’t think about the the sinful aspect of it um so i think that was part of the conviction of it wasn’t it to say this is not a new problem um but maybe our experience of it is new and maybe as you say our thresholds are new i can’t quite work out some days whether that’s a good thing or a bad thing but you know there are clearly some practices that were just unspiritual uh unbiblical ungodly, and then there are some things that are that are more cultural um and you know as cultural tides come in and out is is it’s always difficult isn’t it to figure out was that so terrible that you know that thing some things obviously were terrible and some things were just different.

[7:28] So it’s hard to work that out sometimes and i think when it comes to leaders i uh i don’t know what any of you choose experiences but it’s hard to make make a distinction between strong leadership and abusive leadership sometimes uh um so i don’t know if if If in your experience, Catherine, and thinking about your training, but also your experience, what do you think about strong leadership compared to abusive leadership? Yeah.

[8:02] Yeah, it’s a really interesting question. And like all of these things, it’s so complicated sometimes, isn’t it?

Particularly when you’re in the midst of it. But I think something that might distinguish perhaps between the two is whether the leadership style is seeking to remove choice and voice from those that they’re pastoring.

Because you know we see quite clearly that god has given us uh agency freeway free will uh he is a speaking god and we’re image bearers we have a voice as part of our image bearing status, and and i think when i when i work with people who really are um stuck and struggling in this area i think this is quite a distinguishing thing that stands out that those who really really are being oppressed, which I think is biblical language for abuse, oppression.

[8:56] They are people whose choice, voice, and personhood really have been notably eroded.

So essentially, they are either towing the line and becoming an echo chamber of what an oppressive leader wants them to do and be and think, or they speak out and usually then they’re cancelled and everything that goes with that.

Whereas strong leadership, I think, you know, can be personality styles make a big difference to this as well, don’t they?

There can be strong leadership that is very deliberate and intentional about their views being heard.

And obviously, if someone, for example, is in sin, strong leadership would lovingly and graciously approach someone about that, but they would still be left with a choice and a voice and their personhood would be intact.

[9:50] And I think that’s quite a distinction that you see between the two. Yeah.

Yeah, that’s really helpful. I don’t know, Phil, whether trying to work through an example.

Supposing as a church leader, I want to start a new ministry.

[10:09] So we come as leaders and we say, we want to start this new ministry.

And some people in the church don’t agree with it. They think this is a terrible idea. And they’re heard.

What’s a healthy way that that’s dealt with? then what’s an unhealthy way because it may well be that you do end up starting that ministry because most of the church want to start it the leaders want to start it um but a number of people, don’t want you to start that ministry you know how how does how does bad and good kind of show itself in that do you reckon well if we’re assuming that the ministry you want to start is is good and right and proper yeah that is a wisdom issue rather than a um you know theological issue Yeah.

I mean, the key thing is you’ve got to take people with you. I think that’s crucial.

Now, bad leadership would be something that effectively would seek to bulldozer it through, not to take account of what people are saying, maybe even to marginalise those who have been critical, to almost push them to the side of church life in this particular issue, to suppress their voice, make sure that they’re not heard.

Good leadership, I think, probably would spend more time on process, seeking to explain, and also seeking to make sure that those who are objecting, that they are being understood.

[11:35] Understanding that somebody objects to something isn’t the same as actually agreeing with them.

But there’s a world of difference, I think, in terms of the people who are objecting.

[11:45] So I think good leadership here would be giving people time and space to voice objection in a Christian way, of course, and recognizing that, I think.

But ultimately, leadership does need to make decisions. decisions.

And I think that when people feel that they’re heard and when things have been explained, even at the end of the day, if they don’t agree, there can be great respect for the way in which you’ve engaged with them.

I always find for myself, and I try to speak about this whenever I can, that I think the real paradigm for leadership is John 13, where Jesus, you know, that wonderful statement at the beginning of John 13 about Jesus’ absolute authority that the Father put all things under his power.

And so he gets up, takes off his garment, wraps a towel around himself and begins to wash disciples’ feet.

And it struck me that these men are about to become the most powerful church leaders the world has ever seen as the apostles.

And of course, he does does this for them they’re confused as peter’s objection but then the challenge you know i set you an example so i think good leadership in that situation says how do i actually wash the feet of these people who are objecting and seek to work it through but it doesn’t mean that we surrender.

[13:14] Completely the whole issue that decisions need to be made that ultimately are right and godly, Yeah. Is cancelling and shunning, is that a real thing, do you reckon, Catherine, in church life?

You mentioned that, in fact, both of you mentioned it, to do with sort of marginalising.

Is that one of the worst things about abusive leaders in the way that they marginalised somebody?

I think it can be a part of how oppression happens.

You’re either with me, and loyalty is to me and what I think and want and say and do.

And if you don’t support that, you’re kind of in the out group.

And so I think obviously when we think of cancelling and how it it happens on social media and things like that i think we can sort of the semantics around that can can look a certain way so i think when it’s in a church often it’s more subtle but i think um often someone who is uh that pattern of oppressive leadership as as a distinction.

[14:24] Away from what you know we all do one-off things that aren’t great you know we all sin sometimes times we say foolish things we’re unwise in our words and um and how we respond about that is really important but in oppression there will be a a pattern and longevity to that behaviour and and part of that pattern and tactics is you’re with me or you’re without me and and that can be very very powerful particularly in a church context yeah it’s hard to discern determine and discern I think I’m helping at the church at the moment and the leadership would be saying I to a number of people I think you’re being divisive and of course divisiveness is a biblical character category as well so I’m thinking well I have excuse me some sympathy with that uh in in some sympathy with the church leaders in that uh but uh there’s something to do with scale and as in the scale of the people who are rebelling in that situation and something to do with the the heart.

[15:37] Of them having spoken to them i think there’s something not right there but it’s not it’s not a really easy black and white thing where you say okay the leaders are heretics it’s obvious um you know they’ve got away from some the theology of christ or you know heaven and hell or something It’s really not obvious, it’s kind of.

[15:55] They’re saying things that you would recognize as completely normal biblical categories of things to say and they’re not really doing anything that terrible in the church uh you know they’re not sort of you know beating people in in in quiet room somewhere you know they’re just doing normal church stuff but but it is an issue so it’s i don’t know if you’ve got any sort of tips how.

[16:16] You try and get under the skin of that and say well am i am i deluding myself thinking i’m being oppressed or am i you know and i’m actually sinning or is there something in it i think i think something that i find quite helpful when i’m sort of working with people is to to ask about the relationship that exists just the general relationship with the leader or vice versa because it’s certainly not uncommon for for people to come to me and say i’m being abused by my church leaders and i want advice of what to do and all the rest of it and and you know as phil’s saying i would spend a lot of time listening and hearing examples and but it’s not uncommon for me to come away at the end of that and say look i i don’t hear anything here that actually is is oppressive and abusive what i hear is a lot of relational breakdown between you and this person um and and And this is the area that I think we need to be working in.

And therefore, the question really becomes, what is it that you truly want?

What is the desire that you want in this situation?

[17:28] And often, if they’re being honest with themselves, what they want is for this leader to go because they don’t like him.

[17:36] And I think it’s helpful to really get down to that level because then we can start working.

This is relational breakdown and there’s probably mutuality in that, but we don’t necessarily want to call relational breakdown oppression and abuse because it’s different.

[17:58] Yeah you got any observations on that phil i think terminology is really important um you know i think, we’ve got to be very careful the language that we use and sometimes it’s helpful to ask people to to be aware of that um people can often utilise words and definitions what’s happening in church life that in many ways exaggerate the situation you see this a lot on social media anyway it’s part of our culture people reach straight away for the for the shotgun really instead of just engaging at a more basic level so I think helping people to rethink terminology is helpful but I I agree very much what Catherine is saying.

All of these things come down to relationships.

And maybe finding out in your situation, you mentioned it, Graham, what’s been going on in the past.

Is this something completely new that suddenly erupted?

Or have there been indicators of this in the past? How have people been dealt with in the past?

So often people will use heavy language when they’ve become somewhat exasperated and frustrated.

It’s almost like I’ve tried the one option, now I’m going to go nuclear on this.

[19:19] Yeah, I think my general rule of thumb is that most people leave churches over relational issues rather than theological issues.

Or practice issues. It presents itself possibly as the theological or practice issue, but it’s normally a relation issue because it’s a bit like in a family, you’re put up with an awful lot if you love somebody.

[19:40] That’s not always good because that can be abused by the leaders, but that loyalty.

But generally speaking, people leave churches more relationally than anything else.

But sometimes the leaders are responsible as the primary one who’s broken that relationship, and uh we have to think about that i mean it’s terrible to think honestly catherine as a church leader that someone from a church would go to a third party and say i’m being abused and that there must be even if even if they’re being disproportionate it there must be something of a breakdown in that church culture that the person feels they have to go to someone else to talk to about it and there’s no one in the church that that they they can talk to um i mean we’ve It seems very secular and sort of commercial, but in our own particular church, we’ve recently had to, well, not had to, we wanted to write a whistleblowing policy, a complaints policy.

[20:36] We’ve formed a relationship with some local churches. churches so uh if somebody has a complaint for want of a better word and they don’t feel like they can raise it with us as leaders or someone in the church to sort of advocate on their behalf they can go to one of these two other churches locally and the leaders there will advocate for them they won’t they won’t make a ruling they won’t you know do an investigation but they will speak for them to at least you know make sure their case is heard and in a way it feels sad that that’s necessary but it it seems a good thing and a good and biblical thing but without, breaking down the the autonomy of the local church and the the importance and the dignity of the local church that that we’re not we’re not a sort of little i don’t know.

[21:23] Organization that’s subject to a bigger authority uh structurally you know we’re subject to christ but we do recognize the the benefit of other brothers and sisters who can help us which is different to saying you know we’re like a school that has a governing body that then has a responsibility to the local authority and there’s all kind of investigation process we’re not like that but we do want to be mutually accountable to other churches and other leaders and so on.

[21:47] Sorry, that wasn’t really a question. That was just a comment on what we do.

But it’s kind of flown out of these discussions that we had in writing the book to think in our own local setting, you know, what if somebody just didn’t feel they could raise it with us?

We feel like we’re approachable, but perhaps we’re not. i think that’s really helpful graham and healthy um because you know one has often heard of church situations where in the end it’s been a relationship breakdown and the situation has just ground on for ages yeah the longer it does the more people get dragged in often the worst behaviour becomes the more controlling and coercive it can become so having something that maybe he straight away says okay perhaps we’ve got an issue here um his process that we can engage in yeah i think it’s really makes an awful lot of sense and often people feel safer when they’re in that situation and that there’s immediately a message being sent to the church by the leadership, which is this isn’t about us you know some jolly club where we always want to get our own way we’ve actually set process here, which places us all in a position of accountability, that’s got to be healthy.

[23:05] How do we care for leaders who, by all accounts, seem to have got in a position where they are leading in a way that is flaunting their power, using power rather than scripture and persuasion?

[23:25] Distancing themselves from people who disagree that are not you know creating the right culture how do we help those leaders when that’s exposed uh i don’t know if you want to kick off phil with that i think one of the biggest challenges we have as leaders is often lack of self-awareness yeah in terms of who we are the impact of our words the impact of our leadership style, yeah um and the more you come into an awareness of who you are before god where you are in terms terms of your own personal sanctification and the impact of that on others.

I think often the more we engage in that process, the more we recognize what has gone on earlier in our lives.

What are the models we’ve been exposed to? What were we shown in terms of church leadership and told this was strong leadership when in fact it might have been abusive leadership?

[24:16] So I think growing in self-awareness is something leaders need to look at afresh sadly for some leaders it just doesn’t seem to get on their radar at all but it’s really important but then recognizing what are the things that have formulated our understanding of how to pastor stroke manage people how to do church our understanding of what is good leadership where is all of that rooted and you know as you do that it will take you to some pretty vulnerable place places where you will feel very exposed yes very vulnerable uh but all in all it is very healthy um i think that the the real problem though, Graham is that often really destructive leaders or self-centred leaders yes are unwilling to engage in that process and I think personally often what you find with a really you know.

[25:21] Destructive leader is deep down inside there’s a very vulnerable little boy usually who needs needs support and needs help and in terms of looking to provide that i think it requires great skill and great love yeah i um if you do any of those exercises where you say what’s one of your idols is it comfort um or is it control i always go with control.

[25:52] My co-pastor actually mark always goes with comfort uh which is interesting um and i i remember preaching once and just saying you know i do struggle because i’m a bit of control freak sometimes which is not necessarily a helpful phrase but it’s kind of and i remember one person who who ended up criticizing me for saying well you’re obviously a control freak because you told us you’re a control freak and i was kind of saying well i was just trying to be honest you know about this is one of my struggles i’m aware of it uh so uh so catherine’s now analyzing me uh i’d be interested catherine in how are you trying to help someone supposing supposing uh you know i’m out of control with my control freakery and i’ve had to step down from leadership my observation is uh, i’m in the wilderness now and no one no one really cares about me because the church is happy they’ve got rid of a problem and other church leaders around are thinking well that person was terrible, um you know i’ll pitch up at some other local church i don’t really want to be out and you know try and quietly live out the rest of my days how are you going to help me.

[26:55] And I think this model that CCF, Mike Emlett, sort of uses a lot, saint, sinner, sufferer, can be a really helpful model in all pastoral care, but particularly in a situation like this, because I think it does come back to what Phil’s just said as well, that often we can look at somebody and see that there is sin there, and perhaps our natural disposition is go in and move in and rebuke the sin and see them in that way.

Whereas I think often if you sit down and talk to someone and they’re intentional about looking for where is the saint in this, by which I mean, how are they approaching God?

How are they are they engaging with Scripture?

How are they seeking to deal with this biblically and righteously?

But also I want to be asking, where is the suffering? This person is probably really suffering.

And often when you give that person a voice to share, what is that suffering like?

But also to encourage them, where is it that you’re going? Or even to to encourage them to go that way biblically and scripturally, if they’re not doing that.

[28:15] What often happens is the Holy Spirit just gets to work in a new way as that conversation is happening.

And that individual is more able to see, wow, gosh, I’m being quite controlling in this.

I was really struggling, but that doesn’t mean that the right approach to this is just to to tighten my world and control, and I’ve hurt people in that process.

And asking them for forgiveness would be a really good start.

So I think that saint-sinner-sufferer model is just very helpful.

You might be seeing sin, but don’t necessarily always go straight for addressing the sin.

Look for saint and sufferer as well.

[28:59] And in terms of church members to make a very crude distinction between leaders and members um who’ve also suffered some kind of trauma by the way they’ve been led um and it however, disproportionate it might be it is real and they are they are suffering in that i’ve come across situations where people 10 years after the situation are still able to go in and sit in the study of somebody who’s you know trying to help sort of 10 years later and they’re crying their eyes out about about things that happened to them that weren’t um physical abuse uh or sexual abuse or um you know theological breakdown but with just the way someone treated them but it’s so traumatized them um how do we help people in that situation let’s start with you phil and then go to katherine yeah i mean you’re right trauma real trauma doesn’t necessarily degrade over time it’s a wound of memory and so it becomes fixed and this is why when people talk about for example triggering we can take people back 10 20 30 40 years suddenly they’re back in the moment so the scenario you described there is a is a very very understandable one i think how we help people classically it’s always been initially about creating what they call safety and.

[30:24] And that means really, and that provide working out the relationship pastorally so that someone begins to recognize that you are a friend, you are not like what they’d been exposed to in the past.

[30:43] That can take a huge amount of time. You know, it can take a colossal amount of time in terms of really deep traumatic experiences that people have.

But I think once you’ve created safety and stabilisation, then it is about giving them voice, the very thing that’s been taken away.

And so they do need to talk about what has happened.

There’s often been a pastoral approach to this, which has been, well, you’ve got to move on.

You know you’ve got to draw a line under it and you’ve got to you know accept you are where you are just pray about it and move on um but as katherine said right at the beginning that you know the way god has designed us in terms of our neurology at the way in which memory is processed and held in the brain and all of these things we’ve got to respect that we’ve got to recognize that and you know talking about things like ultimate you know the ultimate end game is probably something like forgiveness and but that can be a million miles off and you can never work towards forgiveness until there’s proper acknowledgement of the the evil that’s been done so i think you know creating safety stabilisation creating an environment where people can talk holding that honouring what they’re saying um helping them to to facilitate talking about what has happened and recognizing that what they’ve gone through is evil is also extremely important.

[32:12] Yes that i’ll throw this one to you catherine but to sort of build on what phil said.

[32:18] Um which is really really good and helpful what if the situation is one where that person or a couple maybe have left a church the leaders or leader where they’ve left is not acknowledging there’s a problem with them uh you can’t necessarily investigate the whole thing and and make a ruling on it so forgiveness and reconciliation might be a goal but how is that even possible uh you know given the situation where would you start katherine yeah i think i think to draw on what phil said you know the triggering is is really important when there’s trauma of any kind and and i think you said earlier graham the thought of someone coming to someone external uh to talk about a church issue is is you know makes you feel uncomfortable for good for good reason but i think one thing we need to be aware of is triggers often happen through our through our senses how we’re experiencing the world and if there has been oppressive leadership, what that can then mean for a person is a pastor who is a man in a position of authority will immediately potentially feel threatening.

[33:32] And, therefore, sometimes coming to someone completely separate who doesn’t have that authority and role, and sometimes even for men coming to someone who is a woman, it just removes a lot of the ways that triggers could happen.

And triggers are terrifying.

[33:52] Somebody who has experienced, you know, trauma isn’t what happens to you.

Oppression happens to you and trauma is the result in you from these harmful things happening.

But what will happen with someone is that their nervous system will go into a state of hypervigilance.

And it can remain in that hyperaroused state for years and years if there isn’t specific clinical help given to address it and reduce it.

And that means we’re just so easily looking for danger.

We’re looking for signs that this person might be harmful.

Harmful um and and we’re experiencing that through our senses in a far greater way than we would if our nervous system had returned back to equilibrium state so as phil was saying you know i would always initially want to be working really with the body to try and create a place of safety and part of that um comes from me trying to be a safe person for them and and i would want to be very very cautious about using things like prayer and scripture because somebody who has been harmed, by an oppressive leadership.

[35:12] Could very easily be triggered through scripture and prayer.

[35:16] So I would want to be very careful about using that.

But what I would hope to be doing is I can try and live out being Christ-like and living out the gospel and scripture in a way that is far less threatening to someone who might just be given scripture, but that could have been twisted and used against them to reduce their voice and voice choice and voice and personhood in an oppressive situation so i would want to be creating safety in all of those ways.

[35:51] There’s so much to think about in what you said sorry it’s all right i think some people may instantly as a as a trigger think oh that sounds terrible if you’re not using prayer in the bible um uh but i recognize what you’re saying and and uh the problem of of praying with someone in an oppressive way in in that you know i can pray you know please help katherine to stop being a nuisance um because she’s really not doing the right thing and that’s an oppressive prayer isn’t even though it may have some sincerity to it and you may be a nuisance but it’s it’s and i can understand that and um you know i’m telling you look here’s a scripture that says you really shouldn’t be questioning my judgment but on the other hand scripture and prayer is also the, uh the only healing in a way you know christ and his word and fellowship with him in prayer is is the only way back isn’t it how do you get them back to that i think you know it needs to be slow somebody has been really really harmed uh not just a single wound in a single place but But throughout their memory, their body, their soul, there have been wounds, wounds.

[37:03] Made all over them. To use a picture, if somebody walked through our church door covered in bandages, we would be so careful and tender with them, wouldn’t we? Because we know they’d been harmed.

But when someone has trauma, it’s a bit like they’ve got those wounds all over them, but there’s no bandages to show it.

But if there’s any hint that there there could be trauma. I would choose to be very slow and very careful and listen and hear what they’re able to share and observe what I’m seeing about them.

But I would want to be moving towards what do you think about me just praying now?

Are you okay with that? Or is that going to feel hard for you?

And I’ve had actually somebody say to me at one point, I don’t know if the God you’re praying to is my God.

And that isn’t sort of, you know, I think they’re coming theologically from a biblical view of God, but they’ve seen God distorted so much through their leadership.

They distrust me as well.

So I would be coming from a position of, I don’t think they trust me.

[38:14] But how can I just carefully ask the question, are you okay if I pray?

And yeah, they’re saying, I don’t know if I can say amen because I don’t know if your God is my God, but I’m willing, I trust you enough to hear you pray and let’s just see how we go.

So I would be very careful in how I pray then, but I would be asking the question, is it okay if I do?

But stop me and help me to know if this is triggering for you in any way, because that can be really helpful therapeutically.

It shows a place they’ve been harmed by leadership and it shows a place where theologically we need to do some real work with your beliefs around this.

So it’s not that I’m…

Reluctant to go to scripture or to prayer and i absolutely believe they they are the areas we really need to be focusing on but i’d be very slow and very careful and i’d be asking for their feedback all the time is this triggering is this sending you somewhere really unhelpful what are you noticing in your body and where are your beliefs going in this because it’s all just really helpful in post-traumatic uh growth which is what we want to be aiming for.

[39:25] And obviously uh sort of stepping back what we would love is if there was there were no clients for you as it were um and nobody in nobody’s suffering trauma and no leaders that need caring for um uh so we want to pray for that we want to work for that i you two may disagree but i would would always encourage anyone and anyone listening if they can try and deal with their issues within the church family that’s where i would love them to start rather than instantly saying i need a i need an advocate i need a mediator um but but to have to have an awareness that that could be something that they need somewhere down the line um but i do i do love the church and i love the the local church and i and i i love the fact that we can.

[40:16] Deal with things as a family and uh and we can fall out as a family and um but still carry on you know serving and loving each other what would just we’ve got to stop in a couple of minutes now but what would your um what would your prayer be for church leaders do you reckon phil if you’re asking people to pray for church leaders what would you be praying for asking them to pray for sorry well i think it’s prayer i pray for myself really which is ultimately for greater christ-likeness yeah um that that isn’t just something that’s a bit of a tick box in my mind but it’s actually something that is demonstrated in the way i am with others i think that paradigm.

[40:59] Of John 13 and the foot washing needs to be the lens through which we see the people God has called us to serve.

[41:09] I think there needs to be a greater emphasis on ministry as service, a servant-hearted ministry, rather than ministry that achieves, a ministry that is successful.

I think ultimately some of us might be called simply to serve and not be successful in terms of the eyes of the way in which we evaluate success.

I think as well, I take you on board with what Catherine’s been saying.

I think we do need a growing awareness of how God has designed us as human beings.

It needs to be an understanding that people who come to us sometimes who have been exposed to real trauma, really abusive forms of leadership, perhaps over a sustained period of time, it is going to play with the way people see the world, how they process memory, how they process what’s going on.

And that that is nothing to do ultimately with how mature we are as Christians or not.

That is just what happens in the same way. If you bash your thumb with a hammer, there is going to be a response.

And I think there’s a similar response to us with trauma, and it would be really, really helpful if church leaders perhaps research this a little bit more and became more understanding of it.

That’s both a prayer and a bit of a call to action you’ve ended up with there, which is all good. Yeah, a prayer can be a call to action, can’t it, Graham? As long as it’s not oppressive.

[42:35] There’s a book called Challenging Leaders, which I mentioned at the beginning, which has a checklist in there for healthy and unhealthy cultures within churches.

So I do recommend that book. I played a very small part in it.

Phil wrote some three chapters of it, actually, with another group of people.

So there’s lots of stuff in there.

Catherine, do you have a website or anything that….

[42:59] Yeah, I’ve got a website, www.the-cornerstone.net, and there’s quite a few talks on there about trauma, about abuse, about anxiety, which obviously goes very hand-in-hand with that too.

[43:16] And what are you looking for in church leaders with your theological hat and your clinical hat on?

What characteristics, as we try and follow Christ, are you looking for in me as a church leader?

Oh, just, I think not just as a church leader, but for every believer, humility, the humility of Christ.

You know, I think, I think it is just such a joy, um, to, to talk to church leaders, uh, who maybe have been a little bit heavy handed and, or realise, oh, you know, what have I done?

And we’ll see that a relational, um, relational brokenness has come out of a situation that they have had a part to play in, you know, and because because we all do that.

But to be the church leader and for them to be saying, oh, gosh, I get this, you know, and let me go to that person and ask for forgiveness, hear what they have to say and really be addressing my own heart, perhaps with my elders, look for more of an accountability.

[44:17] You know, as Phil was saying as well, have more self-awareness of myself.

But humility is the thing that is going to allow that to happen, really, isn’t it?

And I think that is ultimately what distinguishes between an oppressor, because the hardness of a heart of pride will always keep oppression going.

And you will not want to hear and you will not engage with anybody that has a voice that speaks against you.

But humility and the humility of Christ will just change everything.

Excellent point to end on. The humility of Christ. Let’s pray for that in our leaders and in ourselves.

[44:54] Thank you both very much, Phil and Catherine. This has been Affinity Talks Gospel.

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